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Post by Freehold Resident on Nov 19, 2006 17:49:15 GMT -5
Wyane,
First off, you better watch what you say. I happen to be gay, and happen to find what you're saying insulting and degrading. I am not interested in things like "leather boutiques," and such. That is a generalization.
Paramus has plenty of those sex shops, and they do not have a gay population there.
Second, TRUE family values would entail tolerance, not bigotry. The family values you speak of are not family values. They're hate values. That is not a value at all, actually. I know I wouldn't want kids growing up with "family values" like that.
What I have been reading from some of you, in truth, disgusts me. I cannot believe that adults would have such a hatred or fear or a group of people, that pays taxes just like the rest of you. You pay the same amount of taxes as the gay community. Therefore, gay people have just as much of a right to settle down in Freehold as you.
But hey, if that's the kind of town you want, then that's the kind of town you will get. And I will not feel bad about it. I'll move to Bergen County or So. Cali, while my poor hometown crumbles to shambles, in the same vein as Clifton and Paterson. But if you want it that way, then so be it. But I'll be d**ned if I'm going to pity anyone.
F R
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Post by Freehold Resident on Nov 19, 2006 17:58:59 GMT -5
By the way, let me just clarify that I never said that Freehold should be a gay mecca. It just seems like the gay community would really help to revitalize Freehold Borough, since most other groups of people in town do NOT seem to want to help do it. I've heard so many negative remarks by most of you on how this is wrong, and this shouldn't be done, and that shouldn't be done. Yet, surprising, I haven't YET heard anyone come forward with any ideas. Hmm...now isn't that interesting.  F R |
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bergsteiger
Full Member
War is simple, direct, and ruthless
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Post by bergsteiger on Nov 19, 2006 19:16:12 GMT -5
FR, Let me inform you that being tolerant does not mean we have to share your love of a degenerate sex life. If you don’t want to hear normal people voice their disgust of your degenerate life style, keep it to yourself. I wish you no harm in anyway but I not going to shut my mouth (as you would like me to do) just because I am hurting your feelings. Send me a post card from So. Cali,  |
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Post by Freehold Resident on Nov 19, 2006 19:27:17 GMT -5
Bergsteiger,
I could take a much more intellectual route to this debate, but I think the real question is....Why do you care about anyone else's sex life? Are you that much of a pervert that you care what others do in their own bedrooms? I think that bothers me more than everything else you have said.
F R
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Post by wyane on Nov 19, 2006 19:30:44 GMT -5
Your right about on thing, your articulated interest in positive dialog, expressions intent of being genuinely uplifting and offer promising solutions!
I have Friends and family that are GAY, had loved ones who's lives have been cut sort by AIDS, and worked in the Arts a few years back, how ever I don't know you and respect your life style and choices.
We are all entitled to our POV's, and I respect others POV's that are built on Maturity, Fact and unsku'd life experience!
Whats nice about freehold is that there is no overt Irish, Afro, Italian, Jewish flavor...Just a nice subdued multi cultural calmness to its character (though there was a disturbance in the force last monday  ).
So can we agree to disagree, and agree to keep our opened minds? Your entitled to your opinion that some people are intolerant, your not seeking their approval, nor do you need it!
www.supremecourtus.gov/opinions/02pdf/02-102.pdf
On the other hand, If I felt the need to immerse myself in an ethnic or cultural plurality, I'd move to Bensenhust Blyn or So. Philly, Washington Heights, Christopher Street, Astoria, Dearborn, Atlanta, Boca Raton, Wilton Manor, Bed-Sty, Lakewood, yhata, yhata
Cool or have I further embedded myself onto your "S" list  ?
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Post by wyane on Nov 19, 2006 19:43:37 GMT -5
BTW FR... "gay mecca" 
Interesting concept... Being Gay in Mecca, or a totally GAY MECCA, wow, never know whats under that Berka!
Your bing intolerant toward our Arabian community.... be careful  |
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bergsteiger
Full Member
War is simple, direct, and ruthless
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Post by bergsteiger on Nov 19, 2006 19:45:00 GMT -5
Bergsteiger, I could take a much more intellectual route to this debate, but I think the real question is....Why do you care about anyone else's sex life? Are you that much of a pervert that you care what others do in their own bedrooms? I think that bothers me more than everything else you have said. F R You are one that started the gay talk not me. I thought you were normal until you told me otherwise. Stop talking about it and I will stop responding with my opinion. |
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Post by Freehold Resident on Nov 19, 2006 19:49:38 GMT -5
Wyane,
No you have not further embedded yourself onto my "S" list. I respect what you just said.
I do not mind if someone disagrees with an idea. However, I do mind if someone disagrees with an idea, yet does not offer an alternative.
I also dislike people who act as if they are somewhat higher up on the hierarchy, just because of something as trivial as sexual orientation. They are somewhat more powerful, and can tell other people how to live their lives. That is a dangerous thing.
In addition, I have met so many people who carry the "label" of "straight" or "completely heterosexual," YET, they do not live up to that label. Two mainstream examples are Ted Haggard, that evangelical leader, and Mark Foley. And they are just a tiny percentage of the people out there who think they can get away with saying they're straight and then going into parking lots and hooking up with other men, and having a double life. Instead of being honest with themselves and everyone else, they turn into girl thingys who rail against gay people, and are so self-hating that they are willing to destroy not just the wellbeing of their own lives, but everyone else. And it's a vicious circle, because they end up fueling the hatred and bigotry in the society, and that ends up making more people have self-hatred for themselves.
As I have mention before, aside from the love that someone of the same-sex has for another (which is really what homosexuality is), I never understood why others care what strangers do in their own bedrooms. I think that is the scariest perversion of all. That someone feels they have the power to subjugate others because of their attractions and love for one another.
F R
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Post by Freehold Resident on Nov 19, 2006 19:53:26 GMT -5
Bergsteiger,
You have now discredited anything you have said and plan on saying. You do not live in Freehold Borough, and you do not offer anything of value to this forum. Therefore, I will not waste my time responding to anymore of your inane, ridiculously childish, moronic posts. So be gone, before a gay couple drops a purple painted Victorian house on you!!!!!
F R
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Post by Freehold Resident on Nov 19, 2006 20:01:13 GMT -5
Just a little note: It says that I typed "They turn into girl thingys."
That was a filter.....I said they turn into a word that rhymes with "wussies." Only starting with a p.
;D
F R
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bergsteiger
Full Member
War is simple, direct, and ruthless
Posts: 1,189
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Post by bergsteiger on Nov 19, 2006 20:28:25 GMT -5
Bergsteiger, You have now discredited anything you have said and plan on saying. You do not live in Freehold Borough, and you do not offer anything of value to this forum. Therefore, I will not waste my time responding to anymore of your inane, ridiculously childish, moronic posts. So be gone, before a gay couple drops a purple painted Victorian house on you!!!!! F R You can’t defend yourself without name-calling, threats, foul language or changing the meaning of word to suit your agenda and you call me childish? Remember 95% of the population dislikes your behavior. Life would be a lot easier on you if you kept to yourself. Don’t forget the post card from So, Cali. |
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Post by wyane on Nov 19, 2006 20:28:57 GMT -5
First off, you better watch what you say. I happen to be gay, and happen to find what you're saying insulting and degrading. I am not interested in things like "leather boutiques," and such. That is a generalization.your taking this WAY too personal and your being over sensitive!
Paramus has plenty of those sex shops, and they do not have a gay population there. And these shops are inappropriate for a Family community, and community shopping districts, we agree here!
Second, TRUE family values would entail tolerance, not bigotry. The family values you speak of are not family values. They're hate values. That is not a value at all, actually. I know I wouldn't want kids growing up with "family values" like that.
fact is "GAY" communities are mostly free form children (mostly), so the complexion of the commercial retail tends to not be "Family" focused. I have been to SF, LA, SO Beach, etc. so you misinterpret, or I need to clarify
What I have been reading from some of you, in truth, disgusts me. I cannot believe that adults would have such a hatred or fear or a group of people, that pays taxes just like the rest of you. You pay the same amount of taxes as the gay community. Therefore, gay people have just as much of a right to settle down in Freehold as you. you are right on, however this is not a particularly , overly culterialized community, and I am aware that there are a number of Gay homeowners in the Boro, who keep their homes nicer than me at times, and are very pleasant people! and what you do in your home is none of anyones business, as long as your not breaking any laws, and being gay is not against the law, how every, I also don't want to have anti-abortion crap shoved in my face, I find that intolerant (not that its anti abortion, but the way it is crudly taunted), or some one telling me not to drink milk with a burger, or I have to eat fish on Friday.
How about I lose the word "VALUE", it gives me bad vibes in retrospect. It makes me think of Pat Robertson and his kind using creepy "CODE WORDs
But hey, if that's the kind of town you want, then that's the kind of town you will get. And I will not feel bad about it. I'll move to Bergen County or So. Cali, while my poor hometown crumbles to shambles, in the same vein as Clifton and Paterson. But if you want it that way, then so be it. But I'll be d**ned if I'm going to pity anyone.What makes you thin Bergen is any better, though So Cal sounds like a good move, how about Wilton Manor near Ft Lauderdale, might be a nice winter place, you sound like your not welcomed, sorry but this hole string has digressed away from the School Survey, REMEMBER THE SCHOOL SURVEY???.
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Post by Freehold Resident on Nov 19, 2006 20:38:49 GMT -5
Wyane,
I find it funny that I have lived in the borough my entire life, up until now, and the person that is not welcoming me isn't even a Freehold Borough resident. Haha! Ah....irony. I love it.
By the way, we agree on the Pat Robertson and anti-abortion crap!
F R
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Post by wyane on Nov 19, 2006 20:55:46 GMT -5
"Ted Haggard, that evangelical leader, and Mark Foley" I thought this was a great coming out, humbling for the neocons that have attempted to legislate and judiciate their most holy perversion of VALUES, plus Pat Robertson and Mr Farwells sickening reference to 911 and assassinating the Venez Prez....
These folks have been ruling the roost since 1980! Wake up "white" people, these Mayonnaise on White bread eating righteous pontifiicationists are rabid wolves in the now invisible sheep's clothes.
If I may paraphrase Edward G. Robertson as Dathan in the 10 Commandments (one of the best miscasting jobs in motion picture history)...where's your Masai now "W"
Oh...and whats up with Ken Mehlman (former) head of the RNC, luckily he may fade into the sunset. |
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Post by Marc LeVine on Nov 20, 2006 10:36:51 GMT -5
Wyanne:
I happen to agree with you, but during my time in the light industrial staffing industry we were often told by enforcement officials that there was "no will to crack down" on employers of illegal immigrants, because if they did, our business economy would collapse.
We had an HR Director, who came from Amerada Hess, and three HR assistants to review that all I-9 paperwork was complete. We passed all our regular audits. The government told us not to scrutinize the ID documents we were provided with, by the temps, as this sets employers up for hiring discrimination suits. Our employment attorneys, concurred.
At the end of the year, we were sent several boxes of "no match" letters from social security, because many SS#'s were no good. But, at least, this one staffing company collected and paid taxes on 34,000 temps per year - much more than all the land capers and drywallers in the Freehold area, do. There are many such light industrial staffing companies in NJ, NY, and Pa.
My point is that the government has quietly given its marching orders to BICE, IRS, NJDOL, etc. NOT to interfere with employers seeking to fill their jobs. This is where citizens and the Press must call for investigations. This is a premeditated plan - no question about it.
Look...the Cranbury/Dayton area has tons of light industrial employers. Tons. They put all those companies over there, where there is absolutely no low wage earning workforce, anywhere, nearby. ALL of those companies (e.g. LoReal, Petco, etc.) use temps from much further north - thousands of them. The only real enforcement in the area is the Department of Transportation stopping unregistered vans on Route 130. They don't want to attract public attention to this dirty business by letting mounting fatalities on the roads reach the news.
So, if the authorities aren't busting the BIG NAME companies, where they know the "questionable" people are working, when will they get around to the smaller employers that pick up and drop off illegal workers in all our little towns?
Believe me, there is a hidden agenda and this illicit institution is well protected by our government. I can guarantee that my old boss was gloating when he learned of our settlement. I'm sure his exact words were... "Marc just doesn't get it. The government wants these people to work. Its good for the economy. You think they want these employers to go out of business. They don't care about his town."
How do I know...because I heard it from him, before. He says it, because that's what the government auditors told him.
Marc
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Post by Marc LeVine on Nov 20, 2006 11:39:28 GMT -5
Plan B,C, or D? I'm not into assigning letter values to our efforts, because I think we have a very complex issue that requires multiple solutions - many of which can/should be simultaneous.
I also know that we, immediately, need to be taking care of business with some enhanced code enforcement efforts. This will keep existing landlords and homeowners (read Broken Windows, Broken Business), in check. Our Rental Property Advisory Committee meets tonight and is expected to finalize its recommendations for presentation in December. They've done some good, hard work on this topic and have listened to some top notch experts on a whole host of related issues and ideas. I expect, at least, a few good recommendations Will flow from their efforts, which must, next, be considered and approved by the council. Public input is not only welcome - but sought after.
Attracting more homeownership to our town is critical to our overall effort. "Let's pick" a FEW groups - not just minorities - to market our town to. Attracting first time home buyers to FB with regular seminars (like the successful one we had in '05); enlightening our current senior population about reverse mortgages and other ways to stay in their homes, longer; gearing more attention to families, who prefer to live in a community rather than some impersonal bedroom town (the chair of our Rental Committee fits this profile, exactly); encouraging the gay community to live and invest here; attracting back some of the African American families that have been displaced by landlords, who prefer to overcrowd. There is nothing wrong with having more diversity, here. It's just that we don't want to end up a 75% town of illegals or even a 75% population of any one ethnicity.
We also need to do a better PR job with the Monmouth County Board of Realtors, whose realtors have beat up on the Borough for too many years. In fact, PR is going to be a big key in everything we must do going forward. Almost every word we utter to the media MUST be positive. It's what we have always were taught - speak ill of your own family and people will think ill of you. We must ALL sell Freehold Borough to the people that we want to come, live and shop here.
Yesterday, we told my sister to "ssshhh" when she told a nurse standing next to my very ill father that he is "slipping backward" in his fight to survive. What she said is unfortunately true, but you don't want him to hear that kind of talk and stop fighting back. Have that talk in the hallway, but not in front of the patient fighting to survive. Same thing when we talk to the press about Freehold Borough.
We need to SELL Freehold to attract the residents that we want to come here and invest in our town. Realtors understand this better than others. I bought my house with a leaky basement, that no one ever mentioned to us, because the realtor "sold us" on the beamed ceilings, in the Kitchen, that we loved.
I deliberately threw the Gay topic out to the board - not to ignite that silly argument between Freehold Resident and Bergsteiger. I put it out there to stimulate a discussion about whom to market our town to, since the crux of our argument is one, which we all agree on - FB's future can not be based on the needs of a community of illegal immigrants, their illegal employers and their absentee landlords. When and if these people become legal, they will be welcome as a legitimate part of our diverse community. Then, like all of us, they will have to decide whether or not they can financially afford to live in a very expensive part of New Jersey, without enjoying all the artificial support and advocacy they currently enjoy. Right, Libertarians? Survival of the fittest?
Until then, we have a right to make other plans for our town, which include turning the same market forces that brought the illegal immigrants here, in the first place, against their further migration here. This seems to be the best strategy for us and one that no one can fight this. It challenges us to do a better job making us look better to those we want to attract.
Marc
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bergsteiger
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Post by bergsteiger on Nov 20, 2006 12:49:38 GMT -5
“It's just that we don't want to end up a 75% town of illegals or even a 75% population of any one ethnicity.”
I agree with the 75% illegals would be bad, in fact very bad. What would be wrong with 75% of one ethnicity? Every town that I know of that is greater then 75% of one ethnicity is nicer then the ones that aren’t. Similarity is strength.
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Post by Marc LeVine on Nov 20, 2006 13:08:51 GMT -5
I'm only interested in two things...
Legality and good neighbors...don't care what color or religion they are. If they pay their taxes, maintain their properties, adhere to the law and contribute to the betterment of our community, they are welcome to be here.
In life, we and our children are exposed to people from all over the world. This is a global society in the 21st century. We can't change that. Better that we and they are exposed to all these peoples, early, and gain MUTUAL RESPECT for all of them. Remember, we may look different to them, too.
Marc
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bergsteiger
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Post by bergsteiger on Nov 20, 2006 13:43:38 GMT -5
Marc,
So you agree it would be ok to wind up with 75% of any one ethnicity?
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Post by Libyan Sibyl on Nov 20, 2006 14:49:42 GMT -5
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Post by Freehold Resident on Nov 20, 2006 15:05:42 GMT -5
Libyan,
It is true, based on this study, that having a mono-culture makes people "happy," and it is true, based on this study, that people are less likely to trust people if their town is very diverse.
However, you are missing the crux of this study. What the significance is...
The study is not circling around the concept that this is the end of the story. It is saying that people, right now, at this moment, do not like diversity in their community.
However, this is not the fault of the different races...it's the fault of people who let differences in others intimidate and scare them.
That is what needs to change....not the way that towns and communities work.
Do you agree?
F R
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Post by Libyan Sibyl on Nov 20, 2006 15:25:48 GMT -5
I am not missing any points - in fact, I only made one statement and you agreed with it.
I was simply responding to Bergsteiger's call for a community that is 75% the same. Here is a study to support his proposal that similarity makes people happier, more trusting.
It's a human tendency to flock to their own. "We" may redefine who "we" are based on who "we" perceive "them" to be, but it is human nature.
If you think you can change basic human nature, knock yourself out.
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Post by Freehold Resident on Nov 20, 2006 15:36:42 GMT -5
I agree.
Two points, though...and it's sort of a vicious circle...
1.) Eventually over time, this will fade out, as people become more comfortable with differences.
2.) Eventually over time, people will create differences, as minor as they might be...so that there will pretty much always be "different types of people."
So, while I do not believe human nature can change...I think it will fade out, or into different categories of differences.
Just my opinion..
F R
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Post by Marc LeVine on Nov 20, 2006 15:37:28 GMT -5
I would not aim for this figure. No. But, I do suppose that certain social and geographic factors can lead to this happening in some places like Spring Lake, for example.
The racial makeup of the Spring Lake is 98.77% White, 0.34% African American, 0.28% Asian, 0.11% from other races, and 0.50% from two or more races. Hispanic or Latino of any race were 0.73% of the population.
Hey...there are many very nice white people living in Spring Lake, but I prefer a community that mirrors more of our world and our country than that.
Marc
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Post by richardkelsey on Nov 20, 2006 18:59:33 GMT -5
I could have helped you with FAIR -- although at that time -- FAIR did not have attorneys that could or would work with towns. FAIR often sought collaborative efforts with other lawyers to assist such towns. At the time, Mike Hethmon was counsel for FAIR, and he was at best, in a position to provide some basic research or access to research. He was not, by his own admission, a litigator. At that time, FAIR actively monitored Freehold, and extensive contacts were available to that organization. The opportunity to hire counsel has always existed. More recently, real opportunities to possibly have strong, free representation have been available through other more hardy organizations -- including Judicial Watch. (Judicial Watch represented Herndon Virginia -- and my Plaintiffs in that action.) |
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Post by admin on Nov 20, 2006 21:11:53 GMT -5
Well, as you can all see, I moved this topic to the general board. We got so far off of the original school issue that this just does not belong there. What a ride this thread has been, everything from school survey to attracting gay residents, to diversity, to criticizing an elected leader. All good Freehold topics. There is not an easy way to separate all of these issues from this thread. They all need their own topic headings. I like all of the postings here, although one or two got a little nastier than they needed to be. Seeing such a wide range of opinion and commentary is great. I do want to address Bergsteiger and Freehold resident. Both of you really got me laughing at you. Two good view points that should not be dismissed, but could not play nice. I am reminded of the cheesy Libertarian purity test that I posted and you both took. Both of you scored in the same range. Something tells me you deserve each other. In the future, listen to me and I will enlighten you. ;D I do think both of you took things a bit too far, and personal. But, the issue of attracting one group or another is certainly a worthy debate. Now, how about that school survey? |
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Post by wyane on Nov 20, 2006 22:38:39 GMT -5
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Post by wyane on Nov 20, 2006 23:14:58 GMT -5
What they will not tell you when they MARCH for the right to work here, and gain amnesty, hummmmmm
www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2006/04/the_truth_about_2.php
Movimiento Estudiantil Chicano de Aztlan, or Chicano Student Movement of Aztlan (MEChA)..... one of the most anti-American groups in the country, which has permeated U.S. campuses since the 1960s, and continues its push to carve a racist nation out of the American West.
MEChA isn’t at all shy about their goals, or their views of other races. Their founding principles are contained in these words in “El Plan Espiritual de Aztlan” (The Spiritual Plan for Aztlan):
“In the spirit of a new people that is conscious not only of its proud historical heritage but also of the brutal human being invasion of our territories, we, the Chicano inhabitants and civilizers of the northern land of Aztlan from whence came our forefathers, reclaiming the land of their birth and consecrating the determination of our people of the sun, declare that the call of our blood is our power, our responsibility, and our inevitable destiny… . Aztlan belongs to those who plant the seeds, water the fields, and gather the crops and not to the foreign Europeans… . We are a bronze people with a bronze culture. Before the world, before all of North America, before all our brothers in the bronze continent, we are a nation, we are a union of free pueblos, we are Aztlan. For La Raza todo. Fuera de La Raza nada.”
That closing two-sentence motto is chilling to everyone who values equal rights for all. It says: “For The Race everything. Outside The Race, nothing.”
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Post by wayne on Nov 21, 2006 7:57:26 GMT -5
"By the way, when I left charing PEOPLE, I suggested that we get an attorney from FAIR to represent us. The Mayor even agreed to this idea, but my successor, Vanessa Minnena (future Republican council candidate) withheld the introduction. I SMELL Politciing HERE
She was working closely with FAIR and deliberately gummed up the works. I SMELL PARTISAN POLITICKING HERE...GUMMED US IS SUBJECTIVE OPINION
She didn't want to help council do this and even thought PEOPLE would be drawn into the lawsuit if it aided the Mayor. But that's all ancient history now. Little things you didn't know." IF ITS ANCIENT HISTORY, WHY BRING IT UP?
Announcing a settlement 6 day after a an election, in my subjective opinion, gummed up the chances of an opposition candidate, and should I consider that ancient history, and not Partison politics?
Lets do some political math, lets say the the "Settlement" was announced before the elections (like it should have been). there is a strong possibility that ONE (1) Republican would have been elected to the Council.
Lets more forward a short 12 months, when we have TWO (2) Councilmen and (One) Mayor up for elections, and lets say that there the electorate is still licking there "settlement" wounds, wanting more change, so there is the chance that more 3 opposition candidates are elected.(2 council and 1 mayor),
The sum (total) would be a sweeping 4 new "opposition" Representatives on the Council in a short 2 month period after the "Settlement". This would mean also that there is no Majority Party dictating policy without consent. Democracy at its finest allows for consent!
I am not saying that I agree or disagree with the Settlement, but I do smell the rotting stench (no not of the Empire, ...but dear I say...and no offense please) of Washington style Politics with respect to the TIMING of the settlement. Simply the timing clearly was not genuine
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Post by wyane on Nov 21, 2006 8:02:28 GMT -5
Opps, yest another major typo **short 12 month**, I to hire an editor....
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