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Post by admin on Aug 26, 2009 4:59:14 GMT -5
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Post by admin on Aug 27, 2009 4:48:52 GMT -5
The APP just doesn't get it...... www.app.com/article/20090826/OPINION01/908270310/1029/OPINION/Unhealthy+debate+at+Pallone+s+town+hall+meetingThe incivility on display at Rep. Frank Pallone's health care town hall meeting in Red Bank Tuesday night wasn't a total surprise, given the rancor witnessed at such meetings throughout the nation. But that didn't make it any less disgraceful or unsettling. Many of the 1,500 people who showed up at Red Bank Middle School didn't seem interested in learning anything or engaging in the reasoned give-and-take necessary to gaining a fuller understanding of an extraordinarily complicated issue. Many of those in attendance were more than rude, heckling and booing those who had the temerity to express an opinion that differed from their own. And their opinions seemed little more than an echo chamber of misinformation, misconceptions and just plain ignorance. Facts and honest discussion don't stand a chance in such an atmosphere. It's also disturbing that some of the attendees apparently believed that shouting down others was the highest expression of one's First Amendment rights. Speech may be free, but talk is cheap — particularly when it descends into the oratory of the lynch mob, the rhetoric of a rugby scrum or the Reign of Terror during the French Revolution. Those who wouldn't let others voice their opinion did nothing to advance the cause of a badly needed nuanced, intelligent debate. Rather, they did their best to prove the truth of the axiom most often attributed to Mark Twain: "A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is still putting on its shoes." To his credit, Pallone remained calm throughout the evening, even as audience members interrupted him and waved signs reading, "Obamacare may kill my daughter" and "We the people want freedom, not force." Compare Pallone's willingness to meet with his constituents with the actions of New Jersey's senators. Neither Robert Menendez nor Frank Lautenberg has seen fit to hold such public forums themselves. That, too, is a disgrace. New Jersey residents deserve better than to allow the debate to be hijacked by the rabble with bumper-sticker slogans and incendiary sound bites. America is trying to tackle what may be the most important issue facing this country. Health reform affects everyone. Unless reason and civility win the day, both on Main Street and in the nation's capital, we stand to lose the opportunity to have the kind of debate that is a prerequisite to making the changes needed to keep the health care system and citizens healthy. |
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Post by jefffriedman on Aug 27, 2009 9:03:34 GMT -5
The Blog that at the top of this post says in part:
"First Mayor Pat Menna said a few words... Which nobody heard because we were still noisy. There was especially a very funny group back into the corner who kept jeering everybody, and they told Menna to "go get a job". When he said he's a lawyer they repeated "get a real job!" Then Frank Pallone had a very short opening statement, and he said right from the beginning that he's on the Health Subcommittee, and he crafted the bill. At that point, 480 errupted in booing, while the other 20 applauded.
"The way the townhall meeting proceeded was this: There would be a question, or just a statement from an opponent. The crowd would cheer, applaud, even explode in a standing ovation. Pallone would either ask for the next question, mumble something avoiding a direct answer, or say "I wrote the bill, it's not true". Of course he'd be booed every time, but he'd avoid having to lie any more. There were very specific things that were asked from him, and he'd say it's not true, while the people would chant "Li-ar, Li-ar". Other very popular chants were "Vote him out!" or "Just say no!"."
This is not civil discourse. Do people think that they are adding constructively to the debate by chanting liar liar and the such? This is not how civilized people debate important issues. Why would anyone encourage this type of behavior? This should not be emulated. Jeremy Bentham, British philosopher and politician, argued that the true job and moral responsibility of an elected official is to vote their conscious based on their study of the proposed legislation not based on polls. True character is doing the right thing even when it is not expedient or easy.
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Post by fiberisgoodforyou on Aug 27, 2009 9:14:46 GMT -5
Actually, the writer of that editorial does indeed "get it." He or she gets that sadly, many adults are acting like children, shouting out over others, name calling -- instead of calmly trying to convey the points they dislike and firmly imploring the representative to please take their fears and angst and concerns into heavy consideration for reshaping the healthcare reform package. It's like Barney Frank recently said, trying to converse maturely with many of these people is like trying to talk to the dining room table. All that said, to me, these town halls are (should be) tremendous opportunities for the politicians to gain enlightenment about what the American people feel they want and need in healthcare. I would imagine or hope that every single town hall event would derive the top concerns to bring back to DC to figure out how to work these into a final package. Many adults have been frustrated by this administrations attempts to gerrymander and filibuster the debate. At Palone's town hall meeting, "SUPPORTERS" of his bill..., had been BUSED in from out side his district, and instructed to get on line as early as 5:00 PM. Their signage was comparable to what you see a DNC presidential convention. Meticulously and professionally printed Pro-healthcare signs complete with the Obama logo on them. Now THATS organized!!! So when massive numbers of constituents show up at an important town hall meeting, and are displaced by bused in seat fillers(sound familiar??), outsiders who 's deliberate intention is only to deny you access to voice your concerns, opinions and to ask pointed questions of YOUR elected representative...,you better believe there is the risk of perceived unruliness! In fact thats what the "other side" wants, and has intentions of doing, orchestrating conditions that inflame good hard working people. Pallone key quotes of the evening were: "We, federal employees, would be treated just like Wal-Mart (employees)," response to a question is Congress would take the same healthcare as the rest of us. This statement was met with hearty laughter. "I always vote to have government funding of abortion." That's right, folks, Palones words..., agree or disgree..., "I support Nancy Pelosi. Actually, Nancy is one of my favorite people." And when ask if he would accept the obamacare coverage he was supporting for his constituency, he said "NO". If you were at restaurant, and the chef ordered his food the outside because he thought the food was better..., would you eat there or..., would you want that food from the outside that the chef was eating? "Let them eat cake" sound familiar? There is the school of thought that one means of offering Health Care Reform that is fair, very reasonable, is tax incentive based not a costly government mandate...,and designed as a great opportunities for EVERY citizen living in the US an opportunity to save money, and have fantastic access. This involves combining better (and improved) allowances for health care savings accounts that offset high deductible health care policies. This will stimulate the free market and offer even MORE choices for US citizens! Net result..., more personal freedoms, better coverage for ALL and MORE opportunity for coverage for citizens who have none today! |
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Post by fiberisgoodforyou on Aug 27, 2009 23:58:01 GMT -5
So once again you totally missed my clear point about adult behavior so that you can justify and reinforce your anti-Democrat position. So, I therefore take it that you encourage the name calling and shouting of insults at what should be a civilized meeting? What does Pallone's quotes above have to do with my post that you took the time to quote about poor childlike behavior of adults and the potential opportunity to gather qualitative information? All he did was state his positions. Not sure what you're trying to prove above. Lisa, I received a few emails commenting about your angry post about my response. I respectfully will tell you that I "Totally" understood, and understand your points. Can we agree, health care solutions must transcend labels such as Democrat-Republican or Liberal-Conservative. Please understand that Voicing your opinion strongly is not rude and undemocratic... also please understand, in fact, there is an highly organized, well orchestrated effort to shut out the contrarieties and the opposition's voice. Is that OK? Article IV of the Constitution of the United States "guarantees to every State in this Union a Republican form of Government...". Moreover, the United States Founding Fathers like James Madison defined republic in terms of representative democracy as opposed to only having direct democracy. This means that the minority has an equal constitutional right and opportunity as the "majority". We must have every persons interest represented and we must guarantee bi-partisan civil discourse. This highly partisan false pretense that there is an anti-democratic effort is very, very wrong. Issuing labels is not constructive, it is promoting divisive gerrymandering and insulting misdirection. Voicing an intelligent alternate opinion that the majority in power feels is a threat by the message &/or the messenger....., boxing fellow Americans into the angry malcontent box is a morally corrupt constitutional injustice. Lets all agree that what we seek is a pi-partisan, constitutional solutions, not one sided, staged, gerrymandered showboat BS sessons filled with untruths, misleading misinformation. Cheers FIGFY |
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Post by fiberisgoodforyou on Aug 28, 2009 0:32:43 GMT -5
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Post by fiberisgoodforyou on Aug 28, 2009 0:41:31 GMT -5
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Post by fiberisgoodforyou on Aug 28, 2009 0:42:15 GMT -5
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Post by fiberisgoodforyou on Aug 28, 2009 8:13:21 GMT -5
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Post by fiberisgoodforyou on Aug 28, 2009 8:14:10 GMT -5
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Post by fiberisgoodforyou on Aug 28, 2009 8:21:21 GMT -5
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Post by richardkelsey on Aug 28, 2009 14:41:00 GMT -5
I am a believer in civil discourse. I am not a fan of this type of activity. Having said that -- it really is hard to figure out where the line of proper political protest should be.
Some folks can't stand and debate issues -- and let's face it -- these question and answer town halls are designed to be talking point BS sessions for those involved. That's what drives people crazy.
I don't condone the activity. Nothing is really gained -- IMO.
As an aside -- the headline to this article made me both laugh and wince -- as I just found out about 2 months ago that "Tea-bagging" has a rather nasty and sordid sexual connotation. Combining that with Mr. Pallone -- and well -- I had to read the section.
The anger in NJ does not surprise me. The politicians are raping the wealthy and forcing out the middle class to pay for their special interests. Angry, marginalized, New Jerseyans unfortunately have few legit outlets for real political protest. Again -- not making excuses or condoning conduct -- just stating the obvious. As for Pallone -- he supports socialized healthcare for the same reasons others do -- the majority "in his district" love it. Most politicians -- particularly Congressman -- have no political soul. If the polling says its a go -- its a go. My guess is, the polling in his district says -- go.
If you don't have health-care, and you want minimum health care paid for by someone else, you are going to love this plan.
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Post by fiberisgoodforyou on Aug 28, 2009 14:41:02 GMT -5
Don't you have anything better to do than spend time on here smiting me? It's amusing, actually. No hard feelings. I tend to pay little attention. that function is quite silly and meaningless, wouldn't you agree? |
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Post by admin on Aug 28, 2009 17:02:14 GMT -5
Rich Wrote:
As an aside -- the headline to this article made me both laugh and wince -- as I just found out about 2 months ago that "Tea-bagging" has a rather nasty and sordid sexual connotation. Combining that with Mr. Pallone -- and well -- I had to read the section.
I am embarrased to admit, I am befuddled. I thought I had heard it all, but this one is over my head.
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Post by admin on Aug 28, 2009 17:10:46 GMT -5
Of course you received emails about my post. That does not surprise me. I totally agree that the crafting of this package should not in any way be partisan. And that was my point all along. This should be about the American people in all their diverse glory taken care of as one group. I don't think it is difficult to take the most viable concepts from both a conservative and liberal mindset and blend those harmoniously. It can be done but only if the partisan jackasses (democrats and republicans both) take the d**n politics out of it. Maybe they should have had reps from an independent third-party non-partisan group lead the town halls instead. I wonder if that would have been more effective? I was thinking that perhaps they should have created a national survey for people to fill out, nothing too heavy, with some multiple choice and some write-ins. That would have been a calm way to elicit important information! Lisa, Your sentiments about getting the job done in a non partisan way is something we would all like to see. It is unfortunate that too often that is not the case. I think with this healthcare issue, we are seeing something deeper than just partisanship. I believe I mentioned it in another thread that this issue breaks down to who believes in big government and who does not have faith in big government. What we have seen in Washington is very drastic and a massive change. They are not just reforming healthcare, but tearing up our current system with something completely different. That is bound to get people fired up and questioning it all. As I have mentioned before, I think the bottom line is that we have to keep the dialog going on a nation wide scale. We all agree that our system needs help. That is how we will move forward together. |
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Post by admin on Sept 8, 2009 6:00:16 GMT -5
I wrote a letter to the APP in response to their rotten editorial. It doesn't look like it will be printed because there have been many letters written on the topic of these town halls. Few things get under my skin more than when average everyday people are degraded for making their voices heard. Whether that is from the papers of politicians, it is never a good sign. Here is my letter. It is short but sweet due to the limited amount of space the APP allows writers to use.
I have to take issue with the APP editorial about the people who attended the Pallone town hall meeting. While I believe that all the people attending tea parties and town hall meeting should carry themselves in a decent and respectful way, the APP editorial came across very arrogant and condescending.
The APP missed the bigger picture. These town hall meetings are not organized groups. We are not seeing unions or ACORN type groups making this noise. These protests are grass roots efforts by average everyday people. For the APP to negate that, you are missing the point.
Of course Pallone was calm during the meeting. He saw it coming. At the end of the day, Pallone, Holt, Lautenberg and Menendez are all partisans who have no intention of listening to their constituents. They are a part of the unbalance of power that we have in Washington and have no intention of bowing to local pressure. Does anybody really believe that the town hall with Pallone was going to be productive? He would have given canned responses. As per APP reporting, he stated that he is firm in his stance and has no intentions of listening.
Washington is in the hands of far left liberals who do not represent the average person. These town hall protesters are doing a great job of waking people up and getting people to pay attention. That is far better than apathy that we often see too much of.
Washington wanted to shove a haphazard health care package down our throats. They are losing support as more people find out what is going on. For that We should be grateful to the protesters. It is better than silence and we do need to keep the dialog going. I think we all agree that health care in this nation needs help. The APP would serve us better if it focused on that.
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