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Post by admin on Aug 17, 2008 9:13:53 GMT -5
www.app.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080817/NEWS/808170439&referrer=FRONTPAGECAROUSELIn a plan that has managed to draw fire from both sides of the immigration debate, Monmouth County authorities want to check prisoners' immigration status during routine bookings at the county jail. The extra procedure proposed for the 1,328-bed jail in Freehold Township is part of a controversial federal program known as 287(g), which deputizes local law enforcement officers as federal immigration agents. Monmouth County Sheriff Kim Guadagno, who oversees the jail, said she only intends to have a handful of officers check immigration status there and not expand the program throughout the Sheriff's Office. The sheriff had promised to begin the immigration check program at the jail during her successful run for a three-year term last year. The costs associated with fully implementing the program — such as through patrols and in other sheriff's department duties — are too high, Guadagno added. "We don't have the resources to do what the federal government is supposed to do in terms of immigration enforcement," said Guadagno, a Republican. "Right now my concern is the safety of Monmouth County residents. If I can keep a person in jail with an extra background check when that person is a risk to commit a crime, that's the best I can do." No other New Jersey law enforcement agencies are part of the program. Federal authorities may take several months to approve the county's application, Guadagno said. Questions raised A Lakewood resident who organized two rallies protesting illegal immigration, Diane Reaves, said: "It's a shame that she (Guadagno) doesn't feel the importance of implementing the full 287(g) program in Monmouth County — a shame because of the immense expense that the illegal aliens have brought to this state." The 287(g) program authorizes the federal Immigration and Customs Enforcement department to train local officers to enforce immigration law. There are 59 local enforcement agencies across the country with a total of 800 officers trained by ICE for the program. Representatives of immigration advocacy groups said they are wary of Guadagno's proposal. They say it could signal future changes in the region's political and policy climates. "What the sheriff wants to do in Monmouth County is venture into an aspect of the 287(g) program, and what she is proposing is something we oppose," said Charles "Shai" Goldstein, executive director of the New Jersey Immigration Policy Network. "This new booking procedure is not necessary. Local police and corrections officers are already overburdened, and to create an additional responsibility for them in the specialized area of immigration law is bad law enforcement. You will be taking away corrections officers from other training so they can be trained for this." Ocean County authorities said they have no plans to follow Monmouth County's lead. "When we arrest somebody, we generally check warrants, and that is going to pretty much show us what we need to know," Ocean County Undersheriff Wayne Rupert said. "We do work with the federal immigration agents from time to time, and we gain information from that process." Guadagno said the immigration status background checks at the jail would be based on information obtained from ICE. The arrangement would require the Sheriff's Office to spend between $25,000 to $50,000 on training a handful of corrections officers to handle the extra duty. Recouping costs Guadagno said she expects the costs to be quickly recouped if the new program identifies undocumented prisoners, some of whom can then be transferred to county jail space reserved for federal prisoners and detainees. Monmouth County is reimbursed $105 per day for each federal prisoner it houses, Guadagno said. The new arrangement can start after it clears a review by the Department of Homeland Security, Guadagno said. The 287(g) program became known throughout New Jersey when it was pursued for Morristown by Mayor Donald Cresitello, who wanted 10 patrol officers to be trained on how to investigate and begin the deportation process against illegal immigrants. The mayor's proposal was dropped when it failed to gain the necessary support from Morris County officials, who cited high costs. Guadagno said she discussed the 287(g) program with Monmouth County elected officials, including Freehold Mayor Michael Wilson, and met with other community leaders. Wilson, who could not be reached for comment this week, said in a speech at the start of the year that the borough "has been victimized by the nationwide illegal immigration problem" and said the Sheriff's Office has "a significant degree of resources" that could be deployed for 287(g). "This program could prove to be most beneficial to Freehold and other towns in Monmouth County who share our frustration with the burdens brought about by illegal immigration," Wilson said. Guadagno said her department doesn't have enough resources for the extra duties. "I talked to Latino groups who had concerns we would be expanding our patrols, but that's not warranted because we're only modifying our intake procedures at the back doors of our jail," Guadagno said. "I've spoken to Mayor Wilson and others about 287(g). We've had open discussions and we'll continue to have discussions. It's a balance. We're doing the best we can with the resources we have." Chilling effect feared Keyport resident Angel Matos said the Monmouth Chapter of the Latino Leadership Alliance, of which he is a member, has "had an ongoing argument with Kim Guadagno since she was running in the election for sheriff last year, when she first mentioned looking at 287(g). Our concern is that those extra immigration authority tactics can somehow be manipulated to spread out to local patrolling authorities and impact the communities. Instead of a community working toward a smooth assimilation, people will be wondering who's behind them ready to tap them on the shoulder." Rita Dentino, a coordinator at the immigrant advocacy organization Casa Freehold, said, "The 287(g) is totally counterproductive to the ability of police at any level to protect people. If an immigrant knows that any law officer is also an immigration officer, they are not going to call them, not as a crime witness or a victim." Reaves, the Lakewood resident whose anti-illegal immigration rally in May drew about 70 people, said Guadagno should further study benefits of adding immigration enforcement powers to her officers. "Merely checking prison detainees is just not enough. We need more being done to ensure the safety of American citizens. Just think of all the criminals that could be apprehended during, let's say, a routine road check or stop," Reaves said. "Crimes that possibly could be avoided if the criminals are caught before they repeat offenses. We must remember that an illegal alien, who does not have the right to be here in this country, does not have the same constitutional rights as an American citizen. The only rights they may have is that of human rights." CARE TO COMMENT? Visit our Web site, www.app.com, and click on this story for all the latest developments. Also, join in the online conversation about this topic by clicking on Story Chat. Bob Jordan: (732) 308-7755 or bjordan@app.com
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Post by admin on Aug 17, 2008 9:26:53 GMT -5
It is too her credit that Guadagano is at least trying to live up to her campaign promise. AS mentioned in the article, we don't have a done deal yet. The reality is, anything that brings ICE that much closer to Freehold Borough is a very good thing.
Unfortunately, I do not believe we will see 287g at the county level and it will not be the fault of our Sheriff. Remember, the open borders crowd owns this town. They will not allow it any where near here. In the future I will be posting more on this topic with some good info.
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Post by novillero on Aug 18, 2008 9:51:04 GMT -5
the common claim by Dentino is exaggerated. Everyone knows you can do whatever the heck you want in this country - and even flaunt it. Look at the Casa Freehold people, even an "alleged" one on a committee in town.
Furthermore, this program is for people in jail, not for citizens reporting a crime... If this has any affect, it will mean less convictions as criminals on bail won't bother to show up at court.
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Post by fiberisgoodforyou on Aug 18, 2008 11:42:50 GMT -5
; Chilling effect feared
Keyport resident Angel Matos said the Monmouth Chapter of the Latino Leadership Alliance, of which he is a member, has "had an ongoing argument with Kim Guadagno since she was running in the election for sheriff last year, when she first mentioned looking at 287(g). Our concern is that those extra immigration authority tactics can somehow be manipulated to spread out to local patrolling authorities and impact the communities. Instead of a community working toward a smooth assimilation, people will be wondering who's behind them ready to tap them on the shoulder."
Rita Dentino, a coordinator at the immigrant advocacy organization Casa Freehold, said, "The 287(g) is totally counterproductive to the ability of police at any level to protect people. If an immigrant knows that any law officer is also an immigration officer, they are not going to call them, not as a crime witness or a victim."Yes the chilling effect is..., if your UNDOCUMENTED and have a proclivity to practician criminal behavior, get out of Monmouth County!~ The message to everyone, and in particular, an undocumented alien is stay "Clean" and do not engage in behavior or activities that will get you arrested...stay clear of the counties correction systems! Stay honest, if your living an honest life, then there is no problem with this application of 287g, is there? |
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Post by richardkelsey on Aug 18, 2008 13:16:14 GMT -5
www.app.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080817/NEWS/808170439&referrer=FRONTPAGECAROUSELChilling effect feared Keyport resident Angel Matos said the Monmouth Chapter of the Latino Leadership Alliance, of which he is a member, has "had an ongoing argument with Kim Guadagno since she was running in the election for sheriff last year, when she first mentioned looking at 287(g). Our concern is that those extra immigration authority tactics can somehow be manipulated to spread out to local patrolling authorities and impact the communities. Instead of a community working toward a smooth assimilation, people will be wondering who's behind them ready to tap them on the shoulder." Why is this bad? I have no idea why this is bad -- really. If you are here illegally, you should be looking over your shoulder -- and if authorities do their respective jobs -- you should be so concerned you should leave. Assimilation is critical -- but only for those immigrants here legally who have played by the rules, waited their turn, and really want to assimilate into the fabric of the community. The LLA's view on this is exactly the same as Marc's view -- which really stunned me when Marc admitted on this site that in his view, illegals did not have to leave Freehold, they only had to play by the rules. Again -- that's certainly his right to be a proponent of that view, and that view is 100% consistent with the current council and Mayor's hands off approach. It is also consistent with the views of the radical open border's lobby and the LLA. My view is and always has been, to use every legal method, every weapon of public pressure, and every political means in a multi-front effort to drive illegals from every jurisdiction. I don't want illegal aliens mistreated or abused. But there is nothing wrong with working to make sure they leave your jurisdiction, and hopefully the country. They are an economic drain by every measure. More importantly, they take jobs and opportunities form legal immigrants, cutting the line and making it less possible for vigorous lawful increases of legal immigration. The chilling effect is one of the best possible weapons a town or county can use to rid itself of the scourge of illegal immigrants. These same illegal immigrants would be welcome if they would go home and get in line and wait their turn. Or, alternatively, they could go home and reform their native government to help it to provide economic opportunities, education, and social reform. That would be the type of assimilation I could support. Get these countries and governments to assimilate into the 21st century. |
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Post by stffgpr2003 on Aug 19, 2008 15:51:24 GMT -5
Not exactly, Rich. "Playing by the rules," is something the illegal immigrant communities have a difficult time doing, because of the economic burdens (the same ones we face, daily) they would have to accept to accomplish this. This is especially difficult in the most expensive states like New Jersey and in upscale areas like Western Monmouth County. Local poor and middle class residents, who live by the rules, have a difficult time making ends meet.
Many Americans would be more tolerant if greater efforts were made by illegal immigrants to file W-7's and pay employment taxes; pay market rents without overcrowding apartments; pay cash for the medical care received; register their cars and insure them ONLY in the states they actually reside in; learn English; and respect all other federal, state and local laws. It's not a substitute for legalization, but it makes a better case for it, based on many putting their better feet forward.
Down the road, eventual immigration reform should include that back taxes be paid and that sufficient penalties be assessed and collected from all illegal immigrants. Those ducking their eventual responsibilities of making restitution and those continuing to remain part of the underground economy should be deported and thrown in jail should they ever attempt to re-enter the United States.
The nice thing about immigration reform, which we are bound to get under either new administration, is that it should serve to take away all the "excuses" (for continued underground behavior) and strengthen enforcement resolve. The American people must insist on this along with a tightened border with a better overall immigration policy.
There is nothing wrong with what I propose. If illegal immigrants are able to survive our economy without the kind of help that none of the rest of us get from special interest groups and others, they will no longer represent themselves to us, daily, as the byproducts of a chronic crisis that is long overdue for repair.
Marc
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Post by fiberisgoodforyou on Aug 19, 2008 22:39:47 GMT -5
Many Americans would be more tolerant if greater efforts were made by illegal immigrants to file W-7's and pay employment taxes how does an illegal immigrant can file a w-7?
Down the road, eventual immigration reform should include that back taxes be paid and that sufficient penalties be assessed and collected from all illegal immigrants. How do you propose this is accomplished without fraud? How do you verify?
Those ducking their eventual responsibilities of making restitution and those continuing to remain part of the underground economy should be deported and thrown in jail should they ever attempt to re-enter the United States. so with reform the numbers go down from 14-15 million to 5-6 or 7 million that need to be deported and thrown in jail , how do you plan on deporting and throwing in jail 5-6 or 7 million illegal undocumented aliens? The nice thing about immigration reform, which we are bound to get under either new administration, is that it should serve to take away all the "excuses" (for continued underground behavior) and strengthen enforcement resolve. The American people must insist on this along with a tightened border with a better overall immigration policy. Yes and "I'll start my diet tomorrow" and an E-Verify with NO STRINGS ATTACHED..., If you do not enforce existing laws, where is the resolution to enforce new laws, There is nothing wrong with what I propose. If illegal immigrants are able to survive our economy without the kind of help that none of the rest of us get from special interest groups and others, they will no longer represent themselves to us, daily, as the byproducts of a chronic crisis that is long overdue for repair.
I though I did have a special interest group representing me? I call them "The Government". If your assertion is that TODAY government concedes illegal undocumented immigration mitigation to special interest groups, WHY should I be confident that after immigration reform the SAME government will turn 180 degrees in support of constituents. SO I can postulate that Government resolves laws and legislation for the special interest first and Constituents second? This a sad cometary, and an abismal reflection on the people we elect. |
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Post by admin on Aug 20, 2008 6:59:56 GMT -5
newstranscript.gmnews.com/news/2008/0820/front_page/015.htmlPrisoners' immigration status issue for sheriff Monmouth official seeks U.S. approval to conduct checks BY CLARE MARIE CELANO Staff Writer Monmouth County Sheriff Kim Guadagno has followed through on a promise she made during the 2007 campaign. When Guadagno was running for the office of sheriff last fall, one of her stated goals was to implement a federal program known as 287(g) of the Immigration Reform Act of 1996. This week she announced that the sheriff 's office has applied for the federal program and had met with homeland security representatives in Newark in July. Guadagno said implementing the 287(g) program would ensure safer communities by allowing law enforcement officers to check the immigration status of anyone who is already incarcerated in the Monmouth County jail, Freehold Township, before the inmate is released. The sheriff 's office oversees the operation of the county jail. She said the ability to check a person's immigration status would prevent illegal aliens who have outstanding warrants or immigration issues from being released on bail into the community. The 287(g) federal program allows for the training of state and local law enforcement officials by Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) officers in order to enforce immigration laws. The county's first female sheriff told Greater Media Newspapers that her ultimate goal is to provide protection for the 600,000 residents of Monmouth County. The sheriff said when the 287(g) program is employed, an "inmate's immigration status is immediately checked and any potential terrorists or criminals will immediately come to the attention of federal authorities." Guadagno said when she met with homeland security officials she was given a presentation about the program. She had to provide federal officials with a let- ter describing the type of 287(g) officers she wants for Monmouth County. "There are two types of 287(g) officers," she explained. "The first type authorizes corrections officers to conduct an immigration search upon booking when a person is processed coming into the jail." Guadagno said rather than waiting for a homeland security officer to come to the jail to check on the status of a person being processed, allowing a corrections officer to conduct that procedure will eliminate the risk of having a prisoner be released on bail and into the community. The sheriff said she believes her concern is well-founded, considering that a response from homeland security representatives about the status of a prisoner is not immediate. She said it could take a week to get an informal response and longer until a homeland security officer appears in person at the jail to interview the prisoner. By that time, she said, the individual may have already been released on bail. Guadagno said this is the type of 287(g) officer for which she applied. "We will not be authorized to, and will not, investigate the status of families coming to visit prisoners or anyone else," she said. The other type of 287(g) officer — which is not being requested by Monmouth County — is what Guadagno termed a task force, in which municipal officers are authorized to work as ICE officers at a county and local level. The sheriff said she received a letter on Aug. 3 which has taken the county to the next step in the application process, which is a needs assessment. At some point a homeland security officer will visit the jail to evaluate the site for the space needed and to make certain the jail can handle the federal technology necessary to assess a prisoner's immigration status, she said. After that, officers will be trained to use the federal computer technology. The federal government will pay for the officers' training. The jail will be paid $105 per day per prisoner to house ICE detainees. According to Guadagno, the cost to the county comes in to pay for officers covering for the three officers who are being trained. This cost, she said, will be $8,000 per officer and will be recouped by the money being paid to the jail by the U.S. government to house ICE detainees. Guadagno said she knows some people are saying she is doing too much in regard to the immigration issue and other individuals are saying she is not doing enough about it. "We are trying to do what we can with the resources we have," she said. "This is a federal problem that we have to deal with on a local level." Freehold Borough Mayor Michael Wilson said he met with Guadagno to discuss the program, which he said "is the right way to go on a county level." "We don't have the capacity or the manpower to do this on a local level," Wilson said. "I applaud her for pursing this. It may not be the answer to illegal immigration in this country, but it is a step to making sure that criminals who are in this country illegally will not be let out on bail into the community and possibly commit serious crimes." The application for the federal 287(g) program does not sit well with Latino advocates, according to Frank-Argote Freyre. Argote-Freyre, who chairs the Monmouth County chapter of the Latino Leadership Alliance of New Jersey, said the alliance is troubled by certain aspects of the initiative. "We had been working with Sheriff Guadagno over the last five or six months and had asked her to keep us informed of its progress," he said. He said he learned about the sheriff 's office application from other sources. "This leaves us concerned. It is also election time," he said, "and there was no press release issued to us. It seems she should have informed the public rather than go about this quietly. We are concerned about her lack of candor on this issue." Argote-Freyre said the 287(g) program seems to have little impact other than to create worry among Latino residents. He said the Monmouth County jail already houses immigration prisoners and one would assume that officials would already have data about individuals housed there. "What exactly is she getting out of this?" he asked. "It's not clear to us. What is she getting that she doesn't already have?" Argote-Freyre referred to the directive issued by New Jersey Attorney General Anne Milgram last year which directs all police jurisdictions to question the citizenship and immigration status of people who are arrested for an indictable crime or for driving while intoxicated and to notify ICE of such persons suspected of being in the United States illegally. Guadagno said the attorney general's directive does not apply to the sheriff 's office, only to municipal law enforcement agencies. "They are two separate entities," she said.
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Post by stffgpr2003 on Aug 20, 2008 8:49:09 GMT -5
Strangely enough the government does permit this. Illegal immigrants have been filing these for years. Unfortunately, not the majority of them, though. Many say they cannot do this, because they left all their ID back in their home country. For many, this may only be an excuse and not an acceptable one.
That's the federal government's job and they are the ones proposing this plan, which is the right one. There IS going to be reform (or do you prefer the alternative - a continued state of limbo?). So, you want to let these folks off the hook? I don't.
Hopefully, as for most of those we jail for trying to return after deportation, I doubt there will be 5-7 million of them. Not if we protect our borders, as we say we will. As for the need to to jail 14-15 million people electing to remain underground after possible reform, we need to pressure the government to enforce employment and tax laws this time around, so that it never comes to that.
I, too, am skeptical about the government's ability to do what it must, but I can tell you this. This illegal immigration situation IS going to be finalized with reform, allowing most to remain in the United States. In a perfect world, these people would never have been allowed to enter the US and form the underground economy in the first place. But, it is not a perfect world. The next best thing is to stop the bleeding by tightening the borders, weeding out the real criminals from the decent folks - assessing and collecting back taxes and penalties from them; and cracking down on employers and others that wish to continue stealing from the government after reform comes. If you expect lesser results from the federal goverment, after the immigration reform they are sure to give us, unfortunately, that's exactly what you'll get.
Here is where we are TODAY. This is the point from which we must move forward. You can either go looking for the bastards that allowed us to get here and spank them before trying to deport 20+ million illegal immigrants. Or, you can come up with a reasonable plan to clean up the mess and make sure it doesn't happen again. The horses exited the open barn doors a long time ago. We need to get some new horses and make darn sure that door isn't left open again.
I have to agree with you here. Special interest groups have really hurt this country. But realize that there are very many special interest groups that have absolutely nothing to do with illegal immigration. In fact, there are special interest groups for almost every issue our lawmakers face. We are inundated by these folks an their demands. THIS is what the American people have to really focus on eliminating more than anything else. This is a structural, root issue that effects the whole of our nation and we must be cleansed of it. However, the immigration crisis can no longer wait and we must start the treatment (dealing with the current immigrant situation) while we also work on the cure, which involves changing the entire culture of government which includes it's relationship with special interest groups.
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Post by novillero on Aug 20, 2008 9:12:28 GMT -5
I think many of us agree on the fundamentals of this. I agree with Marc that there will be reform. However, I do not favot that. I would not mind withdrawing our troops from Iraq to assist in the mass deportations.
Some things you just are willing to pay extra for...
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Post by fiberisgoodforyou on Aug 20, 2008 9:15:49 GMT -5
NT..."Freehold Borough Mayor Michael Wilson said he met with Guadagno to discuss the program, which he said "is the right way to go on a county level"
APP..."Wilson, who could not be reached for comment this week, said in a speech at the start of the year that the borough" APP is blown off, left only with an 8 month old quote
yet last year...Mayor Michael Wilson said, "At this juncture we are avoiding 287(g) for all the right reasons..."
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Post by fiberisgoodforyou on Aug 20, 2008 9:38:50 GMT -5
Strangely enough the government does permit this. Illegal immigrants have been filing these for years. Unfortunately, not the majority of them, though. Many say they cannot do this, because they left all their ID back in their home country. For many, this may only be an excuse and not an acceptable one. So now we split hairs over the TWO categories of Illegal Aliens, the Documented illegal and the Undocumented illegal? Like Bill Clinton asking what is, "is"? Excluding the DOCUMENTED illegal Alien, that would leave us with 13,999,999 UNDOCUMENTED to deal with..  |
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Post by stffgpr2003 on Aug 20, 2008 9:48:18 GMT -5
Who REALLY favors this? Only those who somehow profit from illegal immigration and many immigrants, themselves. However, I bet there are many illegal immigrants, who FUNDAMENTALLY do not favor immigration reform, because it promises to restore accountablity to the system.
Remember, that it is the crooked economics that fuel illegal immigration. The economics are supported by the chaos the government has (many feel) intentionally permited, because they feel that illegal immigration benefits the economy.
Marc
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Post by stffgpr2003 on Aug 20, 2008 9:58:21 GMT -5
I think you'd be surprised by how many "documented" illegal immigrants there really are.
At least, those with "some form of ID" have payroll taxes taken out of their paychecks. I'll give them and their employers that much.
In a warped way it's a low level recognition of and respect for the basic legal requirements of employment. After all, many of these folks could elect to stand on the street corners with their buddies and solicit untaxed jobs. Instead, many do go to work for "real companies" directly or through temporary employment agencies.
Bad ID is illegal and anyone caught with fraudulent documentation (especially those creating it) needs to be punished, but in an imperfect world as ours (and we must better it), there are still significant monies going to taxes and that's not the worst thing for the bottom line. And, YES, it is still illegal - that's why the system needs reform.
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Post by stffgpr2003 on Aug 20, 2008 10:07:46 GMT -5
Never mind. We better get those troops over to the real war - Afghanistan. And, fast!
Those 10 French troops ambushed and shot to death, yesterday, is indicative of worse encounters, yet to come. With Musharif out out Pakistan, the political vacuum created in that country will recreate the same mess in Afghanistan that lead to the defeat of the Soviets. The word "ambush" became very descriptive of their experience in Afghanistan. A reconstituted Taliban backed by Bin Laden's thugs will spell big trouble. Those people have nothing to live fom but to die as martyrs. They have lots of time on their hands to create "nasties" for Afghan, NATO and US troops.
This one is sneaking up on us and is going to bite us in the ass!!!!
Marc
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Post by admin on Aug 20, 2008 10:08:26 GMT -5
I think many of us agree on the fundamentals of this. I agree with Marc that there will be reform. However, I do not favot that. I would not mind withdrawing our troops from Iraq to assist in the mass deportations. Some things you just are willing to pay extra for... So let me get this straight, we are going to see a massive amnesty for people who broke our laws and have an obscene sense of entitlement. When that happens, the feds are suddenly going to start doing a better job? Sorry, that is a bridge I am not buying. That just seems to be a very naive view of what should be done. At the local level, Freehold needs to aggressively get ICE here, seek out and get rid of any magnets in our town. Anything short of those things will be failure for us. No matter what else is tried. Sorry, that is just the reality. Freehold had also got to take a good look at the state. They will throw us under the bus in a New York second. Between the sell out blue ribbon commission, nonsense coming out of the league of municpalities, and the open borders groups petitioning for and getting sanctuary in this state, Freehold had better start fighting against all of this much harder. |
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Post by fiberisgoodforyou on Aug 20, 2008 10:10:42 GMT -5
That's the federal government's job and they are the ones proposing this plan, which is the right one. There IS going to be reform (or do you prefer the alternative - a continued state of limbo?). So, you want to let these folks off the hook? I don't. Wrong, what you call LIMBO every one else call lack of enforcement! We have tool today called the IRS the Social Security Administration, 287g (our Sheriff is the first and only thinking elected official in the STATE), ICE, Department of Home Land Security, US department of Labor, E Verify..amd many more tools in place TODAY, but there is a lack of resolve for the very reasons we both stated Special Interest supersedes the Public Interest! I, too, am skeptical about the government's ability to do what it must, but I can tell you this. This illegal immigration situation IS going to be finalized with reform, allowing most to remain in the United States. In a perfect world, these people would never have been allowed to enter the US and form the underground economy in the first place. But, it is not a perfect world. The next best thing is to stop the bleeding by tightening the borders, weeding out the real criminals from the decent folks - assessing and collecting back taxes and penalties from them; and cracking down on employers and others that wish to continue stealing from the government after reform comes. If you expect lesser results from the federal government, after the immigration reform they are sure to give us, unfortunately, that's exactly what you'll get. Simple answer...a childhood friend of mine is a Locksmith, and his simple Locksmith "Philosophy" applies here. Good locked are designed to keep honest people honest. Fine reengineering immigration law, will only require the illegals to adjust and continue to pick our locks. You have to fix whats broken first, and then make adjustment AFTER! Here is where we are TODAY. This is the point from which we must move forward. You can either go looking for the bastards that allowed us to get here and spank them before trying to deport 20+ million illegal immigrants. Or, you can come up with a reasonable plan to clean up the mess and make sure it doesn't happen again. The horses exited the open barn doors a long time ago. We need to get some new horses and make darn sure that door isn't left open again. Why is it a bank can detect false ID, yet the Social Security Admin can not, the IRS can not..we need to fix whats broken, not re-wright immigration laws thats convenient for the DNC! I have to agree with you here. Special interest groups have really hurt this country. But realize that there are very many special interest groups that have absolutely nothing to do with illegal immigration. In fact, there are special interest groups for almost every issue our lawmakers face. We are inundated by these folks an their demands. THIS is what the American people have to really focus on eliminating more than anything else. This is a structural, root issue that effects the whole of our nation and we must be cleansed of it. However, the immigration crisis can no longer wait and we must start the treatment (dealing with the current immigrant situation) while we also work on the cure, which involves changing the entire culture of government which includes it's relationship with special interest groups. [/quote] Again good padlock is designed to keep honest people honest, what you concede to is changing the pad lock, thats all, and history proves, the dishonest will figure out how to pick your new lock because thats what dishonest people do! remember this...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15D3ElV1Jzw Also remember that your democrat colleague Mike Wildes of League of NJ Municipalities chairman PROMOTES Sanctuary cities as solution! You need to reach out to him and ask how this benefits freehold Borough? Ask the League to support immigration enforcement, you do support immigration enforcement?
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Post by stffgpr2003 on Aug 20, 2008 10:22:33 GMT -5
LOL!!! Brian, I'm suprised at you. You just contradicted yourself and didn't realize it. Who the heck does ICE report to? Hint: The same people you say are trying to sell you that bridge.
If you don't think Washington will be willing to fix the system with/after reform, do you really think you can depend on BICE, their lead agency in this mess, for years, to do what is needed, now?
BICE, as INS, were the people who originally brought you the muster zone in the first place and were also the folks who told the town - in 2003 - that they had no funds, no manpower nor poltical will and direction to address the illegal immigration issue.
I was at that meeting which included leaders from PEOPLE. We all heard the same thing - and again from the conciliator they sent to town to tell us the same thing.
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Post by fiberisgoodforyou on Aug 20, 2008 10:35:10 GMT -5
I think you'd be surprised by how many "documented" illegal immigrants there really are. At least, those with "some form of ID" have payroll taxes taken out of their paychecks. I'll give them and their employers that much. In a warped way it's a low level recognition of and respect for the basic legal requirements of employment. After all, many of these folks could elect to stand on the street corners with their buddies and solicit untaxed jobs. Instead, many do go to work for "real companies" directly or through temporary employment agencies. Bad ID is illegal and anyone caught with fraudulent documentation (especially those creating it) needs to be punished, but in an imperfect world as ours (and we must better it), there are still significant monies going to taxes and that's not the worst thing for the bottom line. And, YES, it is still illegal - that's why the system needs reform. Suer everyone esle is doing it, so...lets adjust the laws! Watch the youtube video! |
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Post by admin on Aug 20, 2008 10:36:25 GMT -5
LOL!!! Brian, I'm suprised at you. You just contradicted yourself and didn't realize it. Who the heck does ICE report to? Hint: The same people you say are trying to sell you that bridge. If you don't think Washington will be willing to fix the system with/after reform, do you really think you can depend on BICE, their lead agency in this mess, for years, to do what is needed, now? BICE, as INS, were the people who originally brought you the muster zone in the first place and were also the folks who told the town - in 2003 - that they had no funds, no manpower nor poltical will and direction to address the illegal immigration issue. I was at that meeting which included leaders from PEOPLE. We all heard the same thing - and again from the conciliator they sent to town to tell us the same thing. I don't think that was contradiction at all. It shows what I have often said, that illegal immigration is government failure. Again, if the feds are not doing their job now, what makes anyone think they will after and amnesty? Still not buying that bridge! After amnesty, what will we do with the next wave of illegals who come here? They will have a large group of people who are now legal and will support them. Throw in the anchor babies who will be voting in a very few short years, and say goodbye to all other initiatives that this town is rightfully trying. Take a good look at other towns through out the nation and what has happened as the result of illegal immigration. There are no success stories anywhere that sanctuary or amnesty is found. Those places turn into an absolute disaster. Why should our town have to take that gamble? Amnesty is nothing more than really bad advice from any who are selling. I would hope that Freehold has learned its lesson and is not taking bad advice any longer. |
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Post by richardkelsey on Aug 20, 2008 10:36:48 GMT -5
Ahh --- no. They may have recommended this solution -- but it was Mayor and Council who set-up the muster zone. |
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Post by admin on Aug 20, 2008 10:39:24 GMT -5
Ahh --- no. They may have recommended this solution -- but it was Mayor and Council who set-up the muster zone. Ditto! See my previous comment on Freehold NOT taking any more really bad advice. We can see where it got us last time! And please, tell me we will never consider another muster zone. I got a bad feeling that will come back up. |
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Post by stffgpr2003 on Aug 20, 2008 10:50:32 GMT -5
Wrong, what I call LIMBO is what some call "a duck." The present system is waddling and we're not getting anywhere how many years later? You can cite all the bureacracies you want, but the people that order them around have already decided to give us reform. We need to stop pissing into the wind and, instead, get involved in the details to be included in that coming reform. In my opinion, our greatest leverage is in the negotiations for how the reform will be applied and administered.
This is why you should not let your attention be diverted to fairy tale land. If you are a businessman you anticipate the future and plan for what you see coming. You also have to adopt a can do attitude regarding what you believe you can control. If the government is going to give us lemons, we need to make the best lemonade. You and your astute friend are citing human nature, which is nearly impossible to change. Look at human nature in the concept of civilization, which are governed by law. This is a better concept, because somehow mankind has managed to behave himself better (at least for long stretches) within civilizations BECAUSE of laws. This is what we strive for. There always will be crooks an there will always be jails to out them in. I prefer to align with the good people. When you stop believing that they are out there, you are truly beaten.
We need to deal with the present situation in a reasonable, rational and humane way. We are where we are. We got here because the system failed us. It needs to be revisted and recrafted in a way that works better going forward. Those that beat the old system did so with the help of those that created it. If it were designed better from the start, there wouldn't have been the need to override it. This is why we need to get involved with what is coming next - really involved. If we don't think our government can ever get it right, we ourselves are living in the wrong country.
Singling out the DNC makes one think that the GOP has played no part in this when, in fact, one of my favorite Presidents, Ronald Reagan (but not on immigration) gave you the first major unconditional amnesty and the promising reform that was never properly enforced by him nor by either of the two Bush's or the tough talking Gingrich Congress while Clinton was in office.
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Post by stffgpr2003 on Aug 20, 2008 11:00:10 GMT -5
Freehold's role in all this (national immigration reform) will/can be no larger than Hazleton's, Riverside's, Boonton's or Mamaroneck's or a million other such places. None of those towns will be more than a small footnote in the final determinations made in Washington by people voted in from Minnesota, Georgia, California and Texas. People who don't know us at all, but will influence our lives greatly.
We all need to join with the residents in all other states to help them properly influence their representatives, who will ultimately decide on the kind of reform we will get and how it will be enforced. This is where our focus/emphasis really needs to be.
Marc
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Post by stffgpr2003 on Aug 20, 2008 11:08:33 GMT -5
You know what I saw in Ocean City Maryland, last week, Brian?
"NO LOITERING" signs! I also saw a TV commercial for a politician running for County office in Maryland who included in his platform a "crackdown on illegal immigration."
Now, we took the Cape May - Lewes Ferry" over to Delaware and made it to Maryland in about 4 hours total. Tell me why there is NO LOITERING only 4 hours away? And why is there "crackdown on illegal immigration" as a platform for a candidate for County leadership, only two states away?
Stop blaming small NJ towns like Freehold for not having what the Feds or the NJ State government won't allow or that other states do. Look elsewhere to place a great deal of the blame.
Why can we loiter here and not in Maryland? State's Rights or State's Wrongs? You decide.
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Post by richardkelsey on Aug 20, 2008 12:38:39 GMT -5
Freehold's role in all this (national immigration reform) will/can be no larger than Hazleton's, Riverside's, Boonton's or Mamaroneck's or a million other such places. None of those towns will be more than a small footnote in the final determinations made in Washington by people voted in from Minnesota, Georgia, California and Texas. People who don't know us at all, but will influence our lives greatly. We all need to join with the residents in all other states to help them properly influence their representatives, who will ultimately decide on the kind of reform we will get and how it will be enforced. This is where our focus/emphasis really needs to be. Marc Actually, it is the numerous towns you have mentioned, their efforts, and the publicity they created that has helped to even drive talk of reform. It is their diligence and unwavering will to stay in the fight that will help determine the quality and timing of any reform. Freehold has not gotten into that game at all. With respect to some of your other posts -- I am having a hard time reconciling them all. I agree that Freehold is limited in some actions by the Feds and the State. But that doesn't mean Freehold has no role to play. Heck, Freehold should be working with it's Governor and it's leadership to forge political change to give stronger options to localities. What is Freehold doing in that respect? And, of course, Freehold has not applied for the 287(g) program in the 12 years it has been eligible to do so. Additionally, you keep talking about what it can't do, and whose responsibility it is to do for Freehold, but you don't talk much about what you can do, wants to do, plans to do, and are trying to do. Implied in your responses is a powerlessness that defeats the Council and mayor despite its willingness to fight. Unfortunately, there is very little evidence of the willingness to fight, even if one accepts the powerlessness. Indeed, just recently, you made very clear on these pages that you do not support 287(g) as a means to help persuade illegals to leave. You went even further and stated that those here illegally do not have to leave, but only play by the rules. Those facts, by the way, don't make you a bad person. Those views, however, are not consistent with the notion that Freehold is actively working to change its circumstance, or has the will to do so. That's my only issue. In one of your earlier posts -- you said something to the effect that you hated illegal immigration -- or something strong and unequivocal statement like that. Unfortunately, you don't hate it enough to take steps to change it or shape the debate or influence the direction of the reform. It is the towns like Freehold, sitting on the sidelines paralyzed by inaction, that will ultimately give strength to the people of other states and Senators of other regions to shape reform as they wish. Simply put -- they don't know Freehold because Freehold has not made an effort to stand and be counted. If every town council, County Board, County Supervisor, mayor, Freeholder, and the like from every small town that is afraid to take action would just stand and be heard -- reform would be here -- now. And that reform would be strong and useful for legal citizens and honest immigrants playing by the rules. Marc -- you are the founder of the PEOPLE organization. Remember it? The very essence of that organization was set out in the name. Pressing elected officials Now -- when small "p" people stand and "press elected officials" they are called negative. They are attacked by some. The truth is -- we are all better when elected officials are pressed. And the pressing of elected officials is even more effective when they are pressed by other elected officials. You have done that before, and you get credit from me for it. I think the Borough, collectively and through its elected leaders, needs to work much harder in pressing elected officials so you have a chip in the game and some ability to influence reform. Don't accept being powerless. |
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Post by stffgpr2003 on Aug 20, 2008 13:07:17 GMT -5
Start "reconciling" what I wrote, because you have not paid any attention at all. Influencing reform is all I talked about because reform is coming. Influencing reform is what PEOPLE was all about. Go back to the very first articles in the newspapers and read them. I was trying to encourage residents to read up on the immigration matter, discuss it and collectively influence policy. And, immigration was not all that PEOPLE was supposed to be about, either. Things only got ugly when I stepped down and my replacement used the group with her own personal hateful branding on it as her platform for GOP election. So much for my non partisan group. We are NOT powerless, but we may not all agree on what the end game needs to be, here. I will not go into all the details on the site, but some already know of my deeper thoughts on the issue. They are more positive, constructive, workable strategies that offer a great deal of hope and promise for our town, long term. Please do not insult me and make my position on issues what you want them to sound like, Rich. I have not given up on my town, but my approach may have changed to some degree. There is no right or wrong approach, by the way - just the one that is eventually proven successful. And, by the way - my personal approach DOES involve continuing to work with elected leaders above my level. Ask Andrew Wynne about a recent email I sent to him about out of state license plates! He reports to Casagrande, by the way. And, by the way that small 'p" is a big "P" for PRESSING...there is no big or small "i" for INSULTING. That woud be counterproductive. When I work with these other elected oficials, there is always respect for them - regardless of party or stance. There is always room for mutual understanding and consensus, I have found. I'm just not going to share a blow by blow description of actions and thoughts on this board for obvious reasons. That strategy has been very successful for others in the past months as we saw very recently. I may be a little bit smarter than some may give me credit for.  And, I really don't need the last word on this. My track record is significant and stands on its own merit. There is even more to come! Marc |
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Post by richardkelsey on Aug 20, 2008 14:22:41 GMT -5
Start "reconciling" what I wrote, because you have not paid any attention at all. Well I disagree of course. I pay very close attention to what you do and write. I can't make judgments about things you do in private for any effort. I can only make judgments on words, actions, and subsequent results. When I say I can't reconcile -- I mean it is hard to reconcile your professed disdain for illegal immigration with your written words that make clear you are unwilling to take certain minimum actions to combat it -- such as support the 287(g) program. You likewise express extreme distaste for the notion that increased enforcement efforts might actually cause illegal immigrants to choose to live elsewhere. And, most recently, you wrote that illegal aliens don't need to leave, they only have to play by the rules. It is those words I cannot reconcile with the words you write regarding a disdain for illegal immigration. Influencing reform is all I talked about because reform is coming. Influencing reform is what PEOPLE was all about. Go back to the very first articles in the newspapers and read them. I was trying to encourage residents to read up on the immigration matter, discuss it and collectively influence policy. And, immigration was not all that PEOPLE was supposed to be about, either. Yes -- I remember that Marc Le Vine very well. He was the activist, grass-roots insurgent who left an active, vibrant, well-constituted, strong-spirited PEOPLE organization to switch parties and take an appointment from the Mayor -- a man often in the cross-hairs of the PEOPLE organization. I did have the great pleasure of meeting with that large group after your departure. They needed a leader willing to continue the work, but were left without such guidance. Things only got ugly when I stepped down and my replacement used the group with her own personal hateful branding on it as her platform for GOP election. So much for my non partisan group. I know that one member of the group made the mistake of running for Council. I am not aware of her "hateful branding." I am aware that your departure did not help the group, but of course the Mayor knew that when he picked you. Please do not insult me and make my position on issues what you want them to sound like, Rich. I am sorry -- I am not trying to insult you at all. I am merely trying to reconcile your words and actions. If I have misstated anything that you said, please let me know and I will correct the record. I have not given up on my town, but my approach may have changed to some degree. There is no right or wrong approach, by the way - just the one that is eventually proven successful. There is nothing wrong with changing tactics if the ones you are using are not working. The question is, however, have the goals changed? I disagree that there are not "wrong approaches." Cooperation and tolerance of illegal activity is a wrong approach, and so is doing nothing. Towns that take those approaches are taking the wrong approach is the goal if to reduce the population of illegal immigrations and prevent and dissuade additional illegal aliens from coming to a town. I agree that being successful is the ultimate measure of an effort. And, by the way - my personal approach DOES involve continuing to work with elected leaders above my level. This I know to be true and stated so above. And, by the way that small 'p" is a big "P" for PRESSING...there is no big or small "i" for INSULTING. That woud be counterproductive. Not sure what all that implies. When I work with these other elected oficials, there is always respect for them - regardless of party or stance. There is always room for mutual understanding and consensus, I have found. This sounds nice as a general proposition. However, if the stance is "be quiet, stop complaining, and we are not going to help you or your town" then no respect is earned, and none should be given. IMO I'm just not going to share a blow by blow description of actions and thoughts on this board for obvious reasons. Okay. But without knowing what you are doing, we are stuck only with the words we can read, the actions we can see, and the results we have. With respect to many initiatives, obviously, those results are fine. I am, as you know, a huge fan of the Borough Pride initiative. With respect to the single largest issue impacting Freehold Borough for the last 15-20 years --- the record of action is much harder to discern. That strategy has been very successful for others in the past months as we saw very recently. This one went right over my head. I may be a little bit smarter than some may give me credit for. Nobody should question your smarts. I sure don't. And, I really don't need the last word on this. My track record is significant and stands on its own merit. There is even more to come! I totally agree that the record tells the whole story on each issue, and people must draw their respective conclusions from accomplishments. |
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Post by fiberisgoodforyou on Aug 20, 2008 14:44:40 GMT -5
Marc, I have enjoyed reading your responses, Your mention of the "Immigration Reform" from the Reagan administration proves the point why we DO NOT need new reforms again! We need enforcement not new rules to excuse lack of enforcement! There is nothing to re-craft, other than enforcement of rules, not new rules again, lets not repeat a failed history of reform and nuvo-violations! Lets reform Municipal code enforcement too, seems that we cant fix it, so why not allow 15 people to live in two bed room apartment, for the last 18 years we have not bee successful with rental enforcement, so here is what we will do,charge a slumlord and extra $1500 for coming forward and admitting there is over crowding, and we will issue a new CO allowing these overcrowding conditions to continue for a "Violation Forgiveness fee". How about this, there are estimates of approx 300K undocumented illegal residents in NJ, and the Gov Coruptozine has made it crystal clear that he MUST have 100K new "affordable housing units" in NJ. Is this the immigration reform your Dem Colleagues in Trenton are giving us? Before you rehabilitated a house that is structurally unsound, you need to FIX whats unsound FIRST, and only then can you rehabilitate. Rehabilitating immigration, aka "immigration reform" aka )code word) "pay to play amnesty" can not work until the essence *(commitment to enforcement) of whats broken is fixed FIRST, lets see some hard proposals rather than more fluffy jargon, chatty hyperbola and anecdotal misdirection! We need the steak not the sizzle! All the mumbojumbo about the reasons for reform you have stated is from the "play Book" on how one politician makes excuses for the failures of other politicians! Here, most people (non politicians) see things this way... Why fix the teeth which very well need replacing, BEFORE you accept the fact that your gums are ROTTED! We need to stick and carrot the employers for not hieing I-9 qualified workers! Those left behind, we need (and they need) to work with their government for successful repatriotization of their nationals. These nationals should easily be allowed to go home and help (re)build their home economies rather than killing ours! Is this not reasonable, rational and humane? YOU NEED TO GO BACK AND READ BASIC IMMIGRATION LAW! to realize reform will NOT work! US immigration policy is based on two simple principals! We take in "Refugees" and "Workers" based on a quota system. We DO NOT take in foreign workers who displace legal American workers and we do not flood the labor market with foreign workers who erode wages as well as erode our economy and social services! This must be reversed, and ANY "reform" must show significant evidence that these negative trends can and will be reversed. This too is reasonable, rational and humane! The message should not be we're gonna deport you, the effort must be ...., let's reach out to help you address the issues and problems that have caused you to leave your native land! Go home and rebuild your country into a success, and allow your great Americans Neighbors help you archive this goal! Kinda like the NPC approach. These people are here because the economic development of their home country has failed, and the we need work with honest governments to achieve economic independence as socio-economic health! and THAT IS THE ROOT CAUSE of why we have this problem today...IT'S ECONOMICS and absolutely not "Diasporic-Indigenous MIGRATION"(to new jersey of all places  )! Trust me, if the Mexican economy (for example) was truly flourishing and booming, that Reconquesta movement would be almost meaningless to the point of Nonexistent! People are smart, and some politicians think that by telling a mistruths enough, people will accept it as fact! that people are not sophisticated enough to know that without enforcement, reform is no gonna work. Never has and will continue to not work. Enforcement first, and reforms after! Do we teaching children, Rules are Meant to massively violated and then reformed? A very interesting "E"bate! Thank you~ Wrong, what I call LIMBO is what some call "a duck." The present system is waddling and we're not getting anywhere how many years later? You can cite all the bureacracies you want, but the people that order them around have already decided to give us reform. We need to stop pissing into the wind and, instead, get involved in the details to be included in that coming reform. In my opinion, our greatest leverage is in the negotiations for how the reform will be applied and administered. This is why you should not let your attention be diverted to fairy tale land. If you are a businessman you anticipate the future and plan for what you see coming. You also have to adopt a can do attitude regarding what you believe you can control. If the government is going to give us lemons, we need to make the best lemonade. You and your astute friend are citing human nature, which is nearly impossible to change. Look at human nature in the concept of civilization, which are governed by law. This is a better concept, because somehow mankind has managed to behave himself better (at least for long stretches) within civilizations BECAUSE of laws. This is what we strive for. There always will be crooks an there will always be jails to out them in. I prefer to align with the good people. When you stop believing that they are out there, you are truly beaten. We need to deal with the present situation in a reasonable, rational and humane way. We are where we are. We got here because the system failed us. It needs to be revisted and recrafted in a way that works better going forward. Those that beat the old system did so with the help of those that created it. If it were designed better from the start, there wouldn't have been the need to override it. This is why we need to get involved with what is coming next - really involved. If we don't think our government can ever get it right, we ourselves are living in the wrong country. Singling out the DNC makes one think that the GOP has played no part in this when, in fact, one of my favorite Presidents, Ronald Reagan (but not on immigration) gave you the first major unconditional amnesty and the promising reform that was never properly enforced by him nor by either of the two Bush's or the tough talking Gingrich Congress while Clinton was in office. |
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Post by stffgpr2003 on Aug 20, 2008 14:53:58 GMT -5
On my end it's -- Of course, you disagree. See, I did learn something from Yogi Berra after all.
Rich, you obviously set the new record for pulling quotes.
Congratulations! You win, again! You get the last word, as usual. It's almost comforting knowing that I'll never be the last to comment on anything. Not on this board, anyway. So, to quote you for a refreshing change: " people must draw their respective conclusions from [what is written]."
YAWN!! I'm going back to Linkedin where I often get selected for BEST ANSWERS and the recommendations on my past accomplishments continue to stack up. Number 14 just arrived. These are folks that really know me and can easily reconcile my words and actions. They care less than you what party I belong to or may have switched from because they've seen my results and it doesn't matter one bit. And why the hell should it?
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)! Trust me, if the Mexican economy (for example) was truly flourishing and booming, that Reconquesta movement would be almost meaningless to the point of Nonexistent!