Council cool on idea for federal program

[admin]

newstranscript.gmnews.com/news/2007/0613/Front_Page/002.html

Council cool on idea for federal program
Specialized training gives police power on immigration actions
BY CLARE MARIE CELANO
Staff Writer



Ted Miller thinks Freehold Borough would benefit from enacting a federal program that trains state and local law enforcement officers to enforce immigration laws.

At a June 4 meeting of the Borough Council, Miller asked members of the council how they felt about the idea.

The federal plan Miller referred to is the Illegal and Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996. The program is referred to as 287(g). Miller referenced Morristown, which has submitted a Memorandum of Agreement to the federal government in the hope of qualifying for the federal program.

"The Morristown Police Department will have the right to enforce immigration laws," Miller told the council members.

He asked them if they would look into the law and determine what Freehold would have to do to be eligible.

"I don't want to harass anyone," Miller said, "but I don't think we should be harassed either, and I don't want us to be a doormat. Are we at the tipping point? Enough is enough. We all want a first-class quality of life. How do we get this message across?"

Michael Gilhooly, director of Northeast communications for U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE), explained that 287(g) allows for federal, state and local law enforcement officers to be trained and certified as immigration enforcement agents.

This allows trained officers, in the course of their normal responsibilities, to legally enforce immigration laws, including checking immigration status, etc. Gilhooly said the officers would have access to the same database ICE employs to determine a person's identification and whether his status is legal or whether a crime committed by a person, regardless of their legal or illegal immigration status, would be cause for removal from the United States.

Gilhooly said there are currently 349 trained officers nationally working with the 287(g) program. Training for a task force team is a five-week program and training for correctional officers is a four-week program. Gilhooly said officers trained by ICE will gain necessary resources and authority to pursue investigations related to many crimes, including violent crimes, human smuggling, gang activity, sexual oriented offenses and narcotics.

Although borough officials did not respond to Miller's question at the June 4 meeting, conversations with them in the days after the meeting revealed that they do not think that 287(g) is right for Freehold Borough - at least right now.

Mayor Michael Wilson said, "At this juncture we are avoiding 287(g) for all the right reasons. I don't think it's the right strategy for our town at this moment."

Wilson said he learned that the program is not designed to randomly and routinely round up illegal immigrants, nor is it designed to address overcrowding and day laborer practices and activities, nor does it allow for immigration sweeps.

"It really allows the police department to pursue illegal immigrants who have committed major crimes such as rape, murder, larceny or kidnapping," the mayor explained. "We will continue to closely monitor this situation in Morristown to determine if the program is developed and enhanced to make it worthwhile for our community. We experience our share of crimes for a small town, but thankfully, major crimes are not the norm in Freehold Borough. The solution to this (immigration) issue still lies with the federal government."

Police Chief Mitch Roth told the News Transcript he thinks 287(g) is beneficial in reporting illegal aliens who commit felony crimes who are then arrested, incarcerated and deported.

"I believe anything that contributes to the public safety is a good thing," Roth said, but he added that 287(g) "is not meant to address day laborers and hard-working people who obey the law and go about their daily business and their daily lives in Freehold.

"I think that implementing this program would undermine the trust and cooperation of the immigrant community that is here in our town and stifle the rapport we have established between the police and the immigrant community. We want the population to come to us if they are victims of crime and injustice and this law would prohibit that from happening and produce more victims of crime," Roth said. "If we participate, even with the training of ICE, a lawsuit could still become Freehold Borough's problem."

Morristown Mayor Donald Cresitello said his town's Memorandum of Agreement for 287(g) was modeled after a similar agreement in Herndon, Va. He said Morristown's plan has passed the first phase of the application process and is currently before federal officials in Washington, D.C., awaiting final approval.

"Herndon has issues similar to Morristown," Cresitello said. "This law is another tool that we can use in fighting criminal activity. This cannot be used for profiling. This is federal power to enforce the law as it's defined."

He said he plans to train 10 police officers to start, but would eventually like to have all 58 of the community's police officers trained in the program by ICE.

"I am hoping the federal government approves this," he said. "I believe that if we have it here, we will rarely have to use it. Once the word gets out that people may be deported, things will change."

Cresitello said 90 percent of the residents in Morristown support the idea of seeking 287(g) status.

He referred to the June 6 arrest of seven men in Morristown in connection with a year-long investigation on gang activity. According to Cresitello, four of the men who were arrested are suspected members of the MS-13, Nietas, Bloods and 18th Street trans-national gangs.

"No one is suggesting that all illegal aliens are criminals, but it doesn't take long for a small group of people to influence many other people," the mayor said.

Morristown Police Chief Peter Demnitz told the News Transcript the police department is in favor of the use of any tool that will address criminal activity. He does, however, have concerns about victims of domestic violence in connection with the implementation of this law.

He said he expressed those concerns, which he said were well received, to the mayor.

"I don't want people to be victims twice or create fear in our town for residents. There are no absolutes, but we will always address the needs of the victim of a crime first," Demnitz said. "We look at all the circumstances and encourage people to report crimes."

At present, there are 287(g) task forces operating in Alabama, Arizona, California, Colorado, Florida, Georgia, Massachusetts, North Carolina, New Hampshire, Tennessee and Virginia. Herndon, Va., is the only municipality in the nation to be accepted into the ICE program. The other agencies participating in 287(g) are correctional systems and state police agencies.

[LS]

Not sure how I felt about this.

But here is the line I think is the most pertinent:

Gilhooly said officers trained by ICE will gain necessary resources and authority to pursue investigations related to many crimes, including violent crimes, human smuggling, gang activity, sexual oriented offenses and narcotics.

If the 287(g) program does not incorporate illegals that are found guilty of run-of-the-mill drug charges, DWI or battery and simple assault, then perhaps it is not the program for us. Then again, there are those reports of gang activity in the boro (whether they are to be beleived or not, but it begs the question if those gangs are composed of illegals)

Another issue on the same lines. I am not personally familiar with the situation in Morristown, but are the crimes committed there by illegals so different from the ones here?

The statement by Chief Roth is not quite accurate:

"I think that implementing this program would undermine the trust and cooperation of the immigrant community that is here in our town and stifle the rapport we have established between the police and the immigrant community. We want the population to come to us if they are victims of crime and injustice and this law would prohibit that from happening and produce more victims of crime," Roth said. "If we participate, even with the training of ICE, a lawsuit could still become Freehold Borough's problem."

This statement would suggest that the immigrant community thinks that drugs and violent crimes are acceptable. After all, this program does not round up informants or victims - just violators. And as for a potential lawsuit, that is why the program requires training and good law enforcement officers. A viable lawsuit cannot follow if procedures are followed, especially if the person is reproted to ICE after a normal arrest (after which it is discovered that the violator is illegal).

I got a chuckle out of Mayor Wilson's comments as they are apt to be misconstrued:

Mayor Michael Wilson said, "At this juncture we are avoiding 287(g) for all the right reasons. I don't think it's the right strategy for our town at this moment."

Wilson said he learned that the program is not designed to randomly and routinely round up illegal immigrants, nor is it designed to address overcrowding and day laborer practices and activities, nor does it allow for immigration sweeps.

It would seem from this comment that he wants a program that would randomly round up suspected immigrants. Which, of course, is not what this town is gunning for.

[richardkelsey]

LS said:

Not sure how I felt about this.

But here is the line I think is the most pertinent:

Gilhooly said officers trained by ICE will gain necessary resources and authority to pursue investigations related to many crimes, including violent crimes, human smuggling, gang activity, sexual oriented offenses and narcotics.

If the 287(g) program does not incorporate illegals that are found guilty of run-of-the-mill drug charges, DWI or battery and simple assault, then perhaps it is not the program for us. Then again, there are those reports of gang activity in the boro (whether they are to be believed or not, but it begs the question if those gangs are composed of illegals)

Another issue on the same lines. I am not personally familiar with the situation in Morristown, but are the crimes committed there by illegals so different from the ones here?

The statement by Chief Roth is not quite accurate:

"I think that implementing this program would undermine the trust and cooperation of the immigrant community that is here in our town and stifle the rapport we have established between the police and the immigrant community. We want the population to come to us if they are victims of crime and injustice and this law would prohibit that from happening and produce more victims of crime," Roth said. "If we participate, even with the training of ICE, a lawsuit could still become Freehold Borough's problem."

This statement would suggest that the immigrant community thinks that drugs and violent crimes are acceptable. After all, this program does not round up informants or victims - just violators. And as for a potential lawsuit, that is why the program requires training and good law enforcement officers. A viable lawsuit cannot follow if procedures are followed, especially if the person is reproted to ICE after a normal arrest (after which it is discovered that the violator is illegal).

I got a chuckle out of Mayor Wilson's comments as they are apt to be misconstrued:

Mayor Michael Wilson said, "At this juncture we are avoiding 287(g) for all the right reasons. I don't think it's the right strategy for our town at this moment."

Wilson said he learned that the program is not designed to randomly and routinely round up illegal immigrants, nor is it designed to address overcrowding and day laborer practices and activities, nor does it allow for immigration sweeps.

It would seem from this comment that he wants a program that would randomly round up suspected immigrants. Which, of course, is not what this town is gunning for.

(I will post this response in 2 locations -- as two threads are working on this.)

I have posted on this 287(g) program since I began posting on the last site. My complaint about 287(g) has always been -- that it still does not permit localities full ICE enforcement rights -- i.e. you cannot elect to investigate and deport illegal aliens merely for being here illegally.

That is why the huge number of participating states have designated officers in state-wide forces to exploit the use against violent offenders. So -- I don't want people to confuse my interest in evaluating the program -- with an insistence that it be implemented.

If I were ban embattled elected official in Freehold -- embattled from both sides -- I would put together a committee to study this program -- and to bring back a full, comprehensive, report that outlines the findings of that committee.

I do understand the Borough not taking an immediate action to implement any programs -- given the talk of immigration "reform." (BTW -- it was me that posted that amnesty was coming -- if you look back to the immediate post-election posts).

I do firmly believe that amnesty is coming. Irrespective of that reality -- nothing would preclude the Borough from organizing a committee of its best and brightest -- and those with the greatest stakes in the debate -- to answer a committee charge and make a report. That's just sound governance. And, it is several years over-due.

[Marc LeVine]

I do firmly believe that amnesty is coming. Irrespective of that reality -- nothing would preclude the Borough from organizing a committee of its best and brightest -- and those with the greatest stakes in the debate -- to answer a committee charge and make a report. That's just sound governance. And, it is several years over-due.

Rich - With all due respect, I don't think we need a committee on this one. We have already talked to officials in Morristown and other places (BTW, their chief isn't sold on this). We have also ready lots of available information posted on the Internet and other places. We've addressed this with Chief Roth and with other involved people around town. There's really not too much else to study with regard to this matter.

In my opinion, announcing such committees and getting the adversarial relations heated up again, will earn us little more than much unwanted press and more unnecessary, long winded speeches by Frank Fryre and Tom Baldwin. And, about what? Something that few are currently doing; others are only considering; and many are backburnering as they take other more productive steps to quell the negative effects of illegal immigration in their towns.

Enforcing the rental recommendations; improving the downtown; enticing more home buyers and discouraging our absentee landlords; building better relations with the immigrant community to develop more cooperation; fighting for the integrity of our schools; and improving the PR our town gets are all effective ways to put us on the right track, while Washington does its own thing.

Just my view.

Marc

[Marc LeVine]

If I were ban embattled elected official in Freehold -- embattled from both sides -- I would put together a committee to study this program

Rich -One other point. Being "embattled" is probably not the best "excuse" for reaching out for 287g, because it doesn't promise to have any noticeable effect on the problems most often cited by our residents - the schools, overcrowding and hanging out looking for illegal work. People will be very disappointed when they see that 287g isn't effecting those things at all.

Also, someone mentioned gang activity tied to the immigrants as a reason for entering into 287g. While I am dutibound to our police investigators regarding sharing any specific information about their work, I will say that a larger gang threat, lurking on the horizon, probably looms from those folks in places like Asbury Park, who are being displaced by redevelopment. This is what we must be alert to and must guard against, with the strongest resolve. We can become a new haven for them.

287g still remains an option if other situations develop...

Marc

[admin]

Police Chief Mitch Roth told the News Transcript he thinks 287(g) is beneficial in reporting illegal aliens who commit felony crimes who are then arrested, incarcerated and deported.

"I believe anything that contributes to the public safety is a good thing," Roth said, but he added that 287(g) "is not meant to address day laborers and hard-working people who obey the law and go about their daily business and their daily lives in Freehold.

"I think that implementing this program would undermine the trust and cooperation of the immigrant community that is here in our town and stifle the rapport we have established between the police and the immigrant community. We want the population to come to us if they are victims of crime and injustice and this law would prohibit that from happening and produce more victims of crime," Roth said. "If we participate, even with the training of ICE, a lawsuit could still become Freehold Borough's problem."

Concerns about undermining trust and cooperation are bogus. As it has been clearly stated, 287g is not going to have our cops knocking doors down or doing sweeps. If anything, this program could launch more dialog with the illegal immigrant community. I do not believe people are foolish enough to think 287g is for dealing with all of the illegals.

Mayor Michael Wilson said, "At this juncture we are avoiding 287(g) for all the right reasons. I don't think it's the right strategy for our town at this moment."

Wrong-implementing it is a proactive, legal, and good thing. Do we want to wait and see if the real bad guys set up shop? then it is too late. Get a handle on this now, so we are prepared.

Wilson said he learned that the program is not designed to randomly and routinely round up illegal immigrants, nor is it designed to address overcrowding and day laborer practices and activities, nor does it allow for immigration sweeps.

"It really allows the police department to pursue illegal immigrants who have committed major crimes such as rape, murder, larceny or kidnapping," the mayor explained. "We will continue to closely monitor this situation in Morristown to determine if the program is developed and enhanced to make it worthwhile for our community. We experience our share of crimes for a small town, but thankfully, major crimes are not the norm in Freehold Borough. The solution to this (immigration) issue still lies with the federal government."

Again, are we to wait for gangs to show up? Is the welcome mat out for them? And yes, the illegal immigration issue may lie with the federal gov, there is little a small town can do, but to not do all that we can do to create accountability and prepare our police reeks of surrender.

LS said

This statement would suggest that the immigrant community thinks that drugs and violent crimes are acceptable. After all, this program does not round up informants or victims - just violators. And as for a potential lawsuit, that is why the program requires training and good law enforcement officers. A viable lawsuit cannot follow if procedures are followed, especially if the person is reported to ICE after a normal arrest (after which it is discovered that the violator is illegal).


In the western parts of the country, where illegal immigration has been a problem for a longer period, the illegal immigrants supporters are against deporting criminal illegal aliens. I again stand by my belief that we should be proactive and not wait for them to show up. Regardless of what the feds do with scamnesty, the criminal element will start off and hide where it is least likely to be found. That includes populations of people who are not trusting of the police and not likely to report crimes. Our current population of unassimilated illegal aliens is prime territory for bigger criminals to set up shop.

Rich said

(I will post this response in 2 locations -- as two threads are working on this.)

Sorry, Rich, I am a bad admin. I should have kept it all together.

Marc wrote

Enforcing the rental recommendations; improving the downtown; enticing more home buyers and discouraging our absentee landlords; building better relations with the immigrant community to develop more cooperation; fighting for the integrity of our schools; and improving the PR our town gets are all effective ways to put us on the right track, while Washington does its own thing.

Just my view.

Marc




All of the above are good things. I agree with ALL of it. That does not that 287g does not fit in as a piece of the puzzle. It is not a silver bullet that solves everything, but it is legal and right.

Marc also wrote

287g still remains an option if other situations develop...

Do not wait for a situation to develop! That is negligent! A situation would indicate that another really bad thing has happened to our town. Should we, as citizens and voters have to wait? Are we then going to stand around scratching our heads saying " what went wrong" ?

Bottom line Marc, you want to attract homeowners, keep the ones we have, attract businesses, and visitors. What is the town doing to instill confidence? Very little.

Give the people a victory and confidence-- 287g

Do not worry about the advocates. Every time they bark, they lose support and we gain it.

[Marc LeVine]

Do not worry about the advocates. Every time they bark, they lose support and we gain it.

Brian:

You are obviously very passionate in your post regarding 287g. I admire this coming from you or from anyone. At the same time, you've also given everyone reading this board a great lesson in how to disagree with the Mayor and Council - CIVILLY! Kudos on that point.

Brian, we obviously differ on our opinions regarding immediate implementation of 287g in Freehold Borough. I have consistently said that I am not sure that this is the way to go for Freehold Borough, right now, because it will confuse and frighten many immigrants, illegal and legal, into thinking that we are becoming a police state capable of stretching the law to intimidate them. Chief Roth is right and he knows this from talking to other chiefs that have considered 287g, too.

In my opinion, it is never too late to accept 287g and apparently every other town except Hearndon, Va. and Morristown, NJ feels that way. There has been no rush for most others to adopt this thing. Not yet.

In the meantime, gangs can be dealt with just as effectively using the special tactics that already exist. They are investigated, under cover, and if they do something wrong, the members are caught and thrown in jail, whether they are the Latin Kings or the Bloods.

Don't think for a minute that Freehold Borough isn't working behind the scenes with Monmouth County to keep an eye on potential gang activity. I wish I could share more about that, but I will say that a greater threat comes from the non Latino gangs in our immediate area. Nothing to panic about - but something to watch and we are doing that.

And, as for the remark quoted above. The advocates play no part in the 287g decisions - at least not for me. I just want to see us less fixated on finding ways to shake up the immigrant community and, instead, focus more on gaining their cooperation, as we build a stronger town around them. They are not leaving and must be given the chance to either join ONE community and follow its rules or take the heat for failing to do so. Sorry, Advocates...I'm fair, but it's time for illegal immigrants to start showing us what kind of Americans they are going to be. We all need to know where we stand - together or apart. The first few small tests haven't gone too well...but it's still early.

If I am wrong about 287g and other beliefs, I am up for re-election in 2 years, should I choose to run. Before that time, I am open to any and all public criticism, which I accept and fully respect. Finally, there is always room for me being convinced by new information and public resolve. I reserve the right to change my mind if situations change.

Let's keep the debate open and why not reach out to the Mayor and the rest of Council to get their views. The best place for doing that is at a council meeting.

Marc

[richardkelsey]

Marc said:

I do firmly believe that amnesty is coming. Irrespective of that reality -- nothing would preclude the Borough from organizing a committee of its best and brightest -- and those with the greatest stakes in the debate -- to answer a committee charge and make a report. That's just sound governance. And, it is several years over-due.

Rich - With all due respect, I don't think we need a committee on this one. We have already talked to officials in Morristown and other places (BTW, their chief isn't sold on this). We have also ready lots of available information posted on the Internet and other places. We've addressed this with Chief Roth and with other involved people around town. There's really not too much else to study with regard to this matter.

In my opinion, announcing such committees and getting the adversarial relations heated up again, will earn us little more than much unwanted press and more unnecessary, long winded speeches by Frank Fryre and Tom Baldwin. And, about what? Something that few are currently doing; others are only considering; and many are backburnering as they take other more productive steps to quell the negative effects of illegal immigration in their towns.

Enforcing the rental recommendations; improving the downtown; enticing more home buyers and discouraging our absentee landlords; building better relations with the immigrant community to develop more cooperation; fighting for the integrity of our schools; and improving the PR our town gets are all effective ways to put us on the right track, while Washington does its own thing.

Just my view.

Marc

Well -- the reason why you have a committee is because it assumes that the Borough Council does not have all the answers. It also allows the community to take part in the examination -- and provides valuable input to help the Borough make decisions. (e.g. your rental advisory committee and its recommendations)

Because only Herndon has enacted the program as a municipality -- I don't think we can yet know what effect it will have on the decision of illegal to settle in one particular community -- versus another. We do know, however, that those populations make those choices for a host of reasons. Being the only municipality to use a legal weapon to pro actively fight illegal immigration will certainly have some positive effect.

In addition -- and with all due respect to the Council as a whole -- the let's wait it out plan has not, is not, and will not work. The immigration is a Federal problem attitude is the reason why Freehold is now occupied. This is an issue that was first, ignored, then mis-handled. Once Freehold realized it was truly being duped and occupied, it never put together an effective strategy to combat the problem. It then found itself on the defensive.

Now -- a tool -- which is not perfect nor is it a silver bullet -- is available for use as a proactive measure to combat the worst of the worst with respect to illegal aliens. It is a tool whose secondary effects are not yet fully known. That is why it must be better studied -- and the community must be invested in it.

I don't make decisions for political reasons -- but I am sure that 90% of the people who can and do vote in Freehold would embrace the Borough investigating a legal tool to combat illegal immigration.

Finally -- I have to say -- if the strategy is to avoid the Frank gang and do whatever it takes to keep them quite -- you lose. Indeed, they have already won if any part of your analysis even considers the grandstanding of fools.

[Marc LeVine]

Well -- the reason why you have a committee is because it assumes that the Borough Council does not have all the answers. It also allows the community to take part in the examination -- and provides valuable input to help the Borough make decisions. (e.g. your rental advisory committee and its recommendations)

The Rental Committee had lots of avenues to explore - plenty of "meat" came out of that one, because there was so much to look at. This particular issue is so limited. It's only one narrow topic, based on a single law with 1 1/2 examples to draw from. I found this out by exhausting my own investigation after a few readings and telephone calls. The Rental Committee was buried in data to explore.

If you are just trying to make the point that you think the community, AS A WHOLE, really wants 287g (and fully understands it), I think it is better for them to come out in impressive numbers and convince Council that this is the way they would like things to go - after hearing our own viewpoints, of course (since we've done our homework, too). Remember, I am one that might be convinced by a solid, educated argument that takes everything into account.

Because only Herndon has enacted the program as a municipality -- I don't think we can yet know what effect it will have on the decision of illegal to settle in one particular community -- versus another. We do know, however, that those populations make those choices for a host of reasons. Being the only municipality to use a legal weapon to pro actively fight illegal immigration will certainly have some positive effect.

Would I like to see some discouragement for additional settlement in Freehold Borough by illegal immigrants - SURE, NO QUESTION. But, I do not think 287g will chase away many that are already here, either. However, they may further withdraw from cooperating with the police and the town. They already come from a corrupt society, where they do not trust their police. Many are very timid around ours.

More than likely, these people will be allowed to stay in the US and be our neighbors. I would like to give this relationship the best opportunity to succeed. When we went to Maplewood, this was one of the thoughts that we were left with. I think it has some merit.

In addition -- and with all due respect to the Council as a whole -- the let's wait it out plan has not, is not, and will not work. The immigration is a Federal problem attitude is the reason why Freehold is now occupied. This is an issue that was first, ignored, then mis-handled. Once Freehold realized it was truly being duped and occupied, it never put together an effective strategy to combat the problem. It then found itself on the defensive.

Yes, there is some truth to the fact that the issue was largely ignored as it emerged in the late 80's and early 90's. John Rosseel and I saw what was happening at our apartment complexes, very early on and warned the town of worsening conditions. We hit those complexes rather hard with stiff controls until we left council. In the years while I was away - I must be frank in saying I'm not sure what happened or didn't happen regarding the issue on Council. I wasn't close enough to the issue to better understand it. Only during the Muster Zone crisis did I "re-enlist" in the struggle.

I will say that I'm not sure if the Council could have done very much more to discourage the migration patterns and market forces influencing them. Towns like Freehold and Lakewood were sitting ducks for illegal immigration to come our way because of our suburban location and our urban makeup - older town with large older homes surrounded by wealth. These landscapers and others needed the labor in Western Monmouth County and they weren't putting these folks up in Marlboro or Manalapan, for sure. The one area the town might have done a better job in was probably code enforcement, though. That's my only thought. Not an excuse, but I doubt that many ever thought things would escalate to their recent levels - that there would be so many illegal immigrants coming here.

Now -- a tool -- which is not perfect nor is it a silver bullet -- is available for use as a proactive measure to combat the worst of the worst with respect to illegal aliens. It is a tool whose secondary effects are not yet fully known. That is why it must be better studied -- and the community must be invested in it.

You can't study what has not yet taken place and of which there are so few live examples. We need to stay on top of what happens in those communities. But, that history will take awhile to unfold. We're going to watch events unfolding very, very closely.

I don't make decisions for political reasons -- but I am sure that 90% of the people who can and do vote in Freehold would embrace the Borough investigating a legal tool to combat illegal immigration.

Neither do I. Refreshing isn't that Perhaps, they would embrace the action. And, I'd like to hear this from them. But, only if they've taken the opportunity to understand what it all means. They can do some homework, on their own, as I did. It very easy to get at the related information, because the pool of available data is so small. If they are well informed and objective about this - let's hear what they have to say. But, I hope it's not just the "round them up, put them on a bus and send them all back to Mexico" folks doing the talking. I also want to hear from the Kevin Coynes, the Frank Gibsons, the Roger Kanes, the Barbara Olivers, the Lilly Hendry's, the Augie Daeseners, the Matt Weismantles, the Carl Steinbergs, the Stella Mayes, the Jim Keelans, the George Schnurs, and the Russ Keimigs, too (in fact we've head from some of them, already). And, not just past politico's, but folks that are well informed and with no particular axes to grind one way or the other.

Finally -- I have to say -- if the strategy is to avoid the Frank gang and do whatever it takes to keep them quite -- you lose. Indeed, they have already won if any part of your analysis even considers the grandstanding of fools.

Not in the least bit. My point about "those long-winded speeches" was from a headache perspective. And, the press gives them too much attention, especially Mr. Baldwin. Bob and Sandy Taylor have something to say at every Council meeting. Barbara Oliver does, too. Mr. Baldwin says three words and its a news story - often stuff that results in bad PR for our town. But, no, my vote has nothing to do with what they want or think. I doubt the Mayor or other Councilmembers are too interested either. We're looking at what we think the bigger picture holds.

Hey...Gunsmoke was a great TV show. Lasted what - 25 years. The TV character Matt Dillon was an American icon for good values. You think he let every mob with torches decide on fair justice when they came banging on his door? He was the Marshall and was entrusted with making the right decisions, based on law and reason. When he sent everyone home, they listened, because they knew it was to restore law and order. Our job on Council is the same. We listen to our residents and then try and do the right thing.

We have a council meeting coming up soon. Let's hear from a variety of residents willing to objectively discuss their thoughts.

Marc

[admin]

calliope said:

Marc's quote -- "They are not leaving and must be given the chance to either join ONE community and follow its rules or take the heat for failing to do so." In my opinion, his statement succinctly states the true crux of the matter. And, this should apply to anyone and everyone in this or any other community.

I will also back up this statement. We do have to face the reality that the illegal population is not going anywhere. Which means they have to be dealt with and confronted. Some people may not like to hear that, but it is the reality.

I have been in this town for thirteen years. The immigrant community has been here longer than me. In that time, there has been no assimilation or integration. If anything, this town is more divided than ever. That has got to change somehow.

There has to be a tough love approach. Fiber put up a great post elsewhere on this site today, stating pretty much the same. The immigrants came here. They chose to live among American's. It is up to them to learn the new culture and get involved in a positive way. Why do we not see more of them at council meetings or involved with the schools, helping the rest of us to try and better this town? This is the biggest failing of all of the advocates. They have not helped in this. Get some of the immigrants to put on the yellow shirts and join the rest of our community in Trenton. It is supposed to be their schools too! Even though some might not like to hear that.

The immigrants need to understand that there are certain things expected of them. If they show some concern and respect for their American neighbors, so much could be solved. We have heard the advocates ask "when will Freehold work with the immigrants?" The bigger question is when will the immigrants work with Freehold. They have been here long enough that there should have been some forward movement. But there has been none.

Getting back to 287g. Chief Roth should be concerned about what message the implementation of it could have. As we have mentioned, it is only a piece of the puzzle. Would we throw out the rental recommendations because of the alleged impact it might have on relations with the immigrant community? No. We have expectations that have to be met and we are right to ask for that.

287g could be, and should be, a part of any community relations effort. It provides opportunity for that purpose if delivered the right way. It says to the immigrants, we are not going to sweep you up, but if you mess up, you will pay a price. Don't mess up and you are on your way to being a better part of our great town. This is why 287g is valuable. It is a part of the reward the good, punish the bad message that needs to be sent. It tells the American citizens that yes, there is accountability in Freehold Borough and we have not turned into a sanctuary town.

As far as the advocates, it provides them with an opportunity to either put up or shut up. They can not tell us with a straight face that we also have to accept the criminal element that comes across the border, illegally, with the majority who are good people. This would be a wonderful issue for them to help build relations with the community that is still segregated from the rest of us. Do they have the character to do this? Do they have the love for our town to do this?

[admin]

To continue my last post on this thread, Fiber nailed it on another thread. It is reprinted here.

Again, this is another reason why we do need to have a few of our officers 287g certified. we do not need to do street sweeps as the Mayor argues in the NT article, but for 2nd offenders, the drug dealers, the gang members, the Prostitutes and their Juan's, the Moving Violations offenders, the Parents who endanger the lives of children by NOT have child restraints in the vehicles. Your gone, we don't need you, you are NOT holding up to your "uncertain immigration" status end of the deal!

If you expect FB to welcome you, follow the rules. If not, we will have the mechanism in place to DEPORT YOU! Its call 287g.

If we had a pervasive drug problem, like in the 70's and 80's, there would be a Drug Task Force established, if there was (?) a Gang problem, we would have a Gang Task Force established, if there were serious vice issues, we should have an appropriate Vice Squad established!

We do have a significant Illegal Alien population here, we should have offices police 287g certified!

Rich is correct, we should have an add hock citizens committee established to define how 287g can work as a deterrent here.

AND Sorry Petra, you gotta go. You need to set the example of fool me once shame on you, fool me twice ..no soap for you, you gotta go now!!!

We have enough repeat offenders and felons living here. This is one import we don't need or want!

Hasta Luego, Adios Amigas, Shalom, Guten Nicht, BE-GHA, Zaijian, and ARIBADERCHI Baby!!!

[admin]

and from Rich Kelsey, who also nailed it.

Why -- because once a town hits critical mass where its politics, demographics, and economics hit the tipping point -- the will to fight is gone. The town actually surrenders through demographic shifts it is unable or unwilling to fight.

In some of the towns you have listed -- pure politics plays a HUGE role. Hard left towns are far less likely to take a pro-active stand against illegal aliens.

Run off a list of the sanctuary towns and cities nationally -- and tell me who controls them. The answer to that question -- will tell you why those cities, and most listed above have and will do nothing.

It is your town -- at least until the surrender is complete, or the invasion is successful. Sometimes it is hard to tell one from the other. But every day people move out -- people from families with roots longer than our oldest trees. Every time one leaves, the will and ability to fight goes with them.

Soon -- no one will be left to stand -- and at that point -- it will be determined that the political will does not exist. I have warned of this for five years now.

Mayor Wilson wanted to run again because -- as he said -- this is his town and he chose to stay when many others chose to leave. For that -- he gets credit. Staying, however, is only the first component in fighting. Soon -- he may find that too few have stayed with him to mount such a fight.

[fiberisgoodforyou]

BTW

"Hasta Luego, Adios Amigas, Shalom, Guten Nicht, BE-GHA, Zaijian, and ARIBADERCHI Baby!!! "

Spanish, Spanish, Hebrew, German, Navajo, Chinese and Dean Martin....

[admin]

Marc said:

Do not worry about the advocates. Every time they bark, they lose support and we gain it.

Brian:

You are obviously very passionate in your post regarding 287g. I admire this coming from you or from anyone. At the same time, you've also given everyone reading this board a great lesson in how to disagree with the Mayor and Council - CIVILLY! Kudos on that point.

Brian, we obviously differ on our opinions regarding immediate implementation of 287g in Freehold Borough. I have consistently said that I am not sure that this is the way to go for Freehold Borough, right now, because it will confuse and frighten many immigrants, illegal and legal, into thinking that we are becoming a police state capable of stretching the law to intimidate them. Chief Roth is right and he knows this from talking to other chiefs that have considered 287g, too.

In my opinion, it is never too late to accept 287g and apparently every other town except Hearndon, Va. and Morristown, NJ feels that way. There has been no rush for most others to adopt this thing. Not yet.

In the meantime, gangs can be dealt with just as effectively using the special tactics that already exist. They are investigated, under cover, and if they do something wrong, the members are caught and thrown in jail, whether they are the Latin Kings or the Bloods.

Don't think for a minute that Freehold Borough isn't working behind the scenes with Monmouth County to keep an eye on potential gang activity. I wish I could share more about that, but I will say that a greater threat comes from the non Latino gangs in our immediate area. Nothing to panic about - but something to watch and we are doing that.

And, as for the remark quoted above. The advocates play no part in the 287g decisions - at least not for me. I just want to see us less fixated on finding ways to shake up the immigrant community and, instead, focus more on gaining their cooperation, as we build a stronger town around them. They are not leaving and must be given the chance to either join ONE community and follow its rules or take the heat for failing to do so. Sorry, Advocates...I'm fair, but it's time for illegal immigrants to start showing us what kind of Americans they are going to be. We all need to know where we stand - together or apart. The first few small tests haven't gone too well...but it's still early.

If I am wrong about 287g and other beliefs, I am up for re-election in 2 years, should I choose to run. Before that time, I am open to any and all public criticism, which I accept and fully respect. Finally, there is always room for me being convinced by new information and public resolve. I reserve the right to change my mind if situations change.

Let's keep the debate open and why not reach out to the Mayor and the rest of Council to get their views. The best place for doing that is at a council meeting.

Marc

Marc,

In your above response you focused on the gang issue. I know that we have a problem and the police are on it. I cited the gang issue more as an example, not as the sole reasoning for 287g.

[Prof DrMoritzMaria vonIgelfeld]

fiberisgoodforyou said:

BTW

"Hasta Luego, Adios Amigas, Shalom, Guten Nicht, BE-GHA, Zaijian, and ARIBADERCHI Baby!!! "

Spanish, Spanish, Hebrew, German, Navajo, Chinese and Dean Martin....

BTW

Spanish for "so long";
spanish for "goodbye friends" (but only female friends);
german for "not good" ("nicht" means "not"- goodnight is "gute nacht");
hebrew for "well being" or "hello" but also used as a form of goodbye;
navajo for "by" not "bye";
Zaijian is actually Mandarin for goodbye (but I'll give it to Fiber as Mandarin is teh dominant language in China and therefore "standard" Chinese); and
"arrivederci" not what Fiber wrote is p1ss poor spelling for Dean Martin (aka Dino Paul Crocetti) who only spoke Italian until age 5, but I guess he was not schooled in Italian.

- Auf Wiedersehen

[Marc LeVine]

In your above response you focused on the gang issue. I know that we have a problem and the police are on it. I cited the gang issue more as an example, not as the sole reasoning for 287g.

Brian:

Actually, it would be the BEST reason for 287g. Unfortunately, in our case, the gang threat is different and, fortunately, not yet too serious, thanks to good police work.

Marc

[Marc LeVine]

There has to be a tough love approach. Fiber put up a great post elsewhere on this site today, stating pretty much the same. The immigrants came here. They chose to live among American's. It is up to them to learn the new culture and get involved in a positive way. Why do we not see more of them at council meetings or involved with the schools, helping the rest of us to try and better this town? This is the biggest failing of all of the advocates. They have not helped in this. Get some of the immigrants to put on the yellow shirts and join the rest of our community in Trenton. It is supposed to be their schools too! Even though some might not like to hear that.

Problem has been - they've had the wrong advocates. The best thing the immigrant community can do right now is to find a few new LOCAL community leaders that they can get behind and have them liaison with the town to determine our mutual needs.

Hey, we busted the illegal restaurant. The landlord and the tenant are culpable for operating the establishment, but what of the immigrants caught eating there? In America, if I buy stolen goods from a thief, I am also guilty of a crime In this case, the "diners" weren't guilty of anything more than using bad judgment by eating in a house illegally operating as a restaurant. Why give the law breaking operators more business and credibility? An American neighbor knew it was wrong and reported it. I also understand that we couldn't get any immigrants to go undercover and help expose it. Was eating there an protecting it simply IGNORANCE of our laws, which is remedied by education. Or was this just IGNORING our laws because the food was cheap and the company, friendly?

Overcrowding. By now it should be no secret to ANYONE that this is not permitted. There have been countless articles in the English and Spanish newspapers about it. The advocates "beef" enough about the way busts are handled, so that the immigrants know it is an issue. Enough busts have taken place so that word of mouth should serve as a warning to others NOT TO OVERCROWD! Yet, the practice continues with no real sign of let up. Why is this?

Bicycle Safety rules. This is my big bugaboo, since we had a whole program in place to change unsafe behaviors and we see no evidence of compliance at all. Not a single reflective vest is being worn (the advocates say, "because the immigrants don't think they look cool!). No one is wearing bright colored clothing at night, either, even though we amended our ordinance to require this. Where are the bike lights that are also required? The current advocates have been involved in our Bicycle Safety Programs and have held their own breakfast and lunchtime sessions, at their soup kitchens and STILL, no noticeable improvement is seen. Why are we being ignored?

I can cite other examples, but we all know them already.

Why are things not improving much in any of the areas I mentioned? I want to believe that it is because the local immigrants haven't identified their own community leaders and have not gotten behind the current group of advocates that say they represent them. Perhaps, even more education is also needed. At least, I'm hoping these are the reasons. Because the only other reason I can think of is - PASSIVE RESISTANCE. And, that will get us all nowhere!

287g could come to Freehold Borough if the negative effects of illegal immigration are not soon quelled and unless the local illegal immigrants begin accepting the same living standards and lawful compliance as the rest of us. For the time being, I'd like to see both groups work a little harder to achieve a degree of unity by adhering to acceptable community behavioral standards - FOLLOW THE LAWS AND RESPECT THE TOWN (and their neighbors). Through compliance and respect, 287g only remains a threat to widespread noncompliance and a reaction to continued law breaking rather than, perhaps, an unnecessary reminder of divisiveness.

Right NOW, just my view.

Marc