bergsteiger
Full Member
War is simple, direct, and ruthless
Posts: 1,189
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Post by bergsteiger on Jun 19, 2007 15:26:31 GMT -5
I look at the replies in this thread as the seriousness that this issue deserves. The Council seems to be bending over backwards to do anything bu trying to punish the people that are creating the nusiance. The broken windows concept is great, but I think we should be fighting the ghetto concept first. Then we can work on broken windows. Hey LS, I can agree with you 100% on this one |
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Post by Marc LeVine on Jun 19, 2007 16:19:39 GMT -5
The history of this issue extends back to a memo written to Foodtown dated 1993. Sad but true. It's not just the Mexicans pushing these baskets over to Institute, Conover and Jerseyville, it's all people that are doing what Foodtown allows them to do with little regard for our neighborhoods.
The cost to the Borough having to pick up these baskets and hold them is not only measured in manpower, but could be paid for in unnecessary workers comp injuries with our tax dollars.
Promises made by Foodtown to collect these carts on their own in a timely fashion have not been kept over the years and these carts are their property. THEY allow them off their premises and THEY are responsible for them. While they do not litter every neighborhood, there are some that get more than their share and the residents DO complain.
As for fixing "Broken Windows," Rudi Guiliani started "fixing" NY by going after the "Squeegee Men" and the graffiti artists. That eventually led to cleaning up Time Square and ultimately helped lower the crime rate in the city. Every little bit helps.
I'm sure Lee-Lee, Joan Kress, Gail Trojan, Sam Venti, Bobbie Oakes and others on that side of town will be very happy we are addressing their issue.
Next item...
Thanks,
Marc
Marc
To position someone outside the door of the store and follow everyone that takes a cart off premise is silly and a waste of resources. It would have the same lasting effect as when the police leave my street and the speeders return, flooring the gas pedal as if no radar.
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leelye
Junior Member
Posts: 150
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Post by leelye on Jun 19, 2007 21:02:16 GMT -5
The history of this issue extends back to a memo written to Foodtown dated 1993. Sad but true. It's not just the Mexicans pushing these baskets over to Institute, Conover and Jerseyville, it's all people that are doing what Foodtown allows them to do with little regard for our neighborhoods. The cost to the Borough having to pick up these baskets and hold them is not only measured in manpower, but could be paid for in unnecessary workers comp injuries with our tax dollars. Promises made by Foodtown to collect these carts on their own in a timely fashion have not been kept over the years and these carts are their property. THEY allow them off their premises and THEY are responsible for them. While they do not litter every neighborhood, there are some that get more than their share and the residents DO complain. As for fixing "Broken Windows," Rudi Guiliani started "fixing" NY by going after the "Squeegee Men" and the graffiti artists. That eventually led to cleaning up Time Square and ultimately helped lower the crime rate in the city. Every little bit helps. I'm sure Lee-Lee, Joan Kress, Gail Trojan, Sam Venti, Bobbie Oakes and others on that side of town will be very happy we are addressing their issue. Next item... Thanks, Marc Marc To position someone outside the door of the store and follow everyone that takes a cart off premise is silly and a waste of resources. It would have the same lasting effect as when the police leave my street and the speeders return, flooring the gas pedal as if no radar. Marc: I am very happy, yes, as are the rest of the neighbors, that this issue is being addressed !! Thanks for the looking into this matter and for the update !! Leelye |
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Post by Bobbi on Jun 19, 2007 23:17:57 GMT -5
Funny,
I ran across one of these "bad boys" Sunday night parked over after the Center Deli on the left going towards the town.
And it wasn't parked out in front of Hogan or his croonies home!
Bobbi
FUIFB
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Post by ls on Jun 20, 2007 13:11:34 GMT -5
To position someone outside the door of the store and follow everyone that takes a cart off premise is silly and a waste of resources... Marc I respectfully disagree with you on this issue. Perhaps you misinterpretted what my thought was. First, this issue has been addressed in the past, to no resolution. And it has continued to be a waste of taxpayer time. Second, my idea is not to follow anyone anywhere. Just wait around the corner. When they coming strolling down with the cart, fine them on the spot. Continue this for a week ot two, with hefty fines (not some silly $25.00 fine) and periodic enforcement later and let's see if the violators find a different way to cart their groceries. As for Rudy Giulianni, I'm getting sick of this reference as it is not working here as you are fining the wrong people. |
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Post by Marc LeVine on Jun 20, 2007 14:36:43 GMT -5
LS Agreeing to disagree is fine, too.  LS, I generally respect your postings and their reasonable tone. You have offered good advice at times. Please keep it up. Maybe, your posting ettiquette will set a better example for others to follow. As for the topic at hand. Past efforts have failed, because we didn't have a sufficient hammer (as in many other situations too!) in the first place; because the efforts were not implemented as well as they could have been by the Borough; nor were we seriously cooperated with by the retailer, as in this case. Search the net and see that what we expect from the shopping cart owners, and have legislated for, is consistent with many other towns and cities. I must have pulled 15-20 ordinances from the Web that sought to address this issue the same way as we are. Case in point. We already have fines in place for stray shopping carts. But, the store owner was letting us pick them up (cost and injury risk), store them for him and then, has been getting them within the 3 day limit to avoid our fines. Who was playing the fool here? Anyone ever have "Kick Me" written on their backs? Again, the carts are FOODTOWN'S responsibility to control. They have been unwilling to work with the town to control them for years and have not even followed through on their promises to deal with the issue on their own (e.g. have their own folks pick them up on time). In fact, they have been very nasty with us at times. Spot fining shoppers will lead to no collective consciousness. It's just like trying to get the tenants on Institute Street (example) to obey bulk garbage pick up times. We've tried hard. But guess what? Just as Joan Kress will report - the people keep changing and no one remembers or knows how to comply from week to week. So, the "learning curve" is making the neighbors put up with couches and mattresses in front of the same houses, week after week. Again, it's the landlord's responsibility to control their tenants and their properties. They want to make money? Well...our residents want to live nicely. Foodtown ALLOWS customers to take carts off premise and that really is the crux of the problem. The folks are effectively shoplifting and, if Foodtown and others are concerned, they need to better address this aspect of the problem, before their inefficiencies spill into our neighborhoods in the form of stray carts. I'm not sure who the wrong people are? If a passenger in the front seat of your car isn't wearing a seat belt, guess who gets a ticket? If I throw a beer party and someone gets into an auto accident, who gets sued? If a company's maintenance employees shortcut the rules and empty chemical drums in the woods (my old employer FEL Corp in Farmingdale had that happen), who gets fined or worse? If a landlord lets a restaurant selling beer at his rental property - especially a second time - who gets hit hardest? Rudy's success isn't working here because we need to do more, not less. Wasting time? Only when you do something with less than the full intended impact and end up with mediocre results. Then, it is wasting time. This is one time we should have done more sooner; monitored the effects closer and made adjustments immediately - before residents had to complain. ...and, when we can do it and when it is appropriate to do, the tenant or the individual involved in a bad activity should also be disciplined by the law. I think we are in agreement on this point. Thanks for listening. Thanks for sharing. Marc |
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leelye
Junior Member
Posts: 150
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Post by leelye on Jun 26, 2007 18:44:11 GMT -5
Marc, Time to add SHOP-RITE to the list. One of their carts made it to the front of 95 South St. @ the corner of Institute. Leelye  |
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Post by Marc LeVine on Jun 27, 2007 9:46:42 GMT -5
Lee-Lee:
No doubt there's an occasional Shop Rite or even a Walmart cart hanging around. If and when we amend the current ordinance, the same will go for all retailers and their wayward carts.
Obviously, in your neck of the woods, Foodtown is the biggest offender.
Marc
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LS, I generally respect your postings and their reasonable tone. You have offered good advice at times. Please keep it up. Maybe, your posting ettiquette will set a better example for others to follow.