Learning Spanish

[bergsteiger]

Freehold said:

It's "you're," not "your."

Hmm..maybe Fiber is right. Maybe we shouldn't learn a second language. Some of us don't even know how to speak our primary language!

FR

If I didnt know better I would think you were an only child.

[Freehold Resident]

And you would be wrong.

As you usually are.

FR

[fiberisgoodforyou]

Casual said:

What is really sad figman is how you despise the children of immigrants and their experiences. Sad because they are the classmates of your children.

It must be difficult to live inside such a small mind.

Casually Sad

I must correct you on two counts,
1) your dragging children into the discussion, these are adult issue 2) you brought Jews into the Discussion, were as the Holocaust is not exclusively a Jewish historical event. Pol's, Gay's, Russian, Gypsy, etc too, all who survived became REFUGEES (owing to a well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group, or political opinion, is outside the country of their nationality, and is unable to or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail him/herself of the protection of that country).

Bartender, another round for our welcomed good friend C*a*s*u*a*l - R*e*a*d*e*r, drink and be merry !

[fiberisgoodforyou]

Freehold said:

Exactly my point. White White White. Mostly WASP.
FR

You enjoy Music? Modern music is totaly influanced by AMERICAN Culture, and Black American Culture is most influental on AMERICAN Music!

Rag Time, Blues, Jazz, Rock and Roll, Soul. Same for Latin Music, heavily influanced by Afro rythms, melodies and beat!

Part of our Melting pot that the WORLD has adopted!
American Culture Is
The Andrew sisters and Sister Sledge, Baseball and Basket Ball, Rhapsody in Blue and Blue Bayou, Armstrong, Aldrin and Alvin Ailey, Norman Rockwell, Georgia O'Keeffe, George Eastman, Dr. Land, The Motion Picture Industry, Ford, Bell and Edison, The American Revolution, Franklyn and Jefferson, US Grant and Jefferson Davis, The Bill of Rights, KFC and Broadcast TV, William Billings, John Philip Susa, Eubie Blake, Elvis, Chuck Berry and Bill Haley, Dorothy and Toto too, Hemingway and Poe, Jimmy Hendrix, John Williams and Aaron Copland, Haight-Ashbury, New Orleans and Minnitonka Mn, Tuna Hot Dish and Ambrosia Salad, Bully, We like Ike, and the Buck Stops Here!, ChinaTown and Downtown (ever hear of Downtown Paris?), Stetson, Smith and Wesson, Mustangs and Muscle cars, d**n the torpedoes!, American Art Deco, Washington Irving, GW Carver Peanut Butter and the traffic light, MLK, Poor Richard's Almanack, Iron Clades, Peter Copper, Robert Fulton, Colin Powell, Erie Canal, Woodstock and Ronald Raygunz...... I have to stop for now... ;D

[bergsteiger]

calliope said:

Boys, boys, boys! Yes, all four of you: Fiber, Casual, Bergsteiger and FR -- let us agree to disagree and please stop the sniping.

I don't want to see people create their own enemies, especially in a world of such turmoil.

No more vicious attacking of one another, OK?

Boys will Boys excluding FR

I feel like I have just been scolded by my Mom.

Ahhhh ok, I'll try to be nice

[Freehold Resident]

You're correct. Excluding me.

I'm a man, not a boy.

FR

[fiberisgoodforyou]

calliope said:

Boys, boys, boys! Yes, all four of you: Fiber, Casual, Bergsteiger and FR -- let us agree to disagree and please stop the sniping.

I don't want to see people create their own enemies, especially in a world of such turmoil.

No more vicious attacking of one another, OK?

YES, YES and serious thread drifting here.

I'll reissue my point,

A strong focus on Science, math, Arts and Musics are being overshadowed by bureaucratic faux multi cultural pandering, while other nations are successfully focused the BASICS!

Why limit MY Children to only ONE foreign language? I want a choice and I do not. having one language, that I, the PARENT SEE LITTLE ACEDEMIC VALUE IN, shoved into my kids brain!

I work in a global economy, and I see the real world differently!

[richardkelsey]

Let's stay on topic.

Topic is state mandate on Borough schools to require learning Spanish.

To me -- the issues in this thread are:

1) state rights to mandate

2) Decision of state to mandate Spanish.

Let's keep our posts related to those subjects. (by related -- I mean a close first cousin.)

[bergsteiger]

fiberisgoodforyou said:

calliope said:

Boys, boys, boys! Yes, all four of you: Fiber, Casual, Bergsteiger and FR -- let us agree to disagree and please stop the sniping.

I don't want to see people create their own enemies, especially in a world of such turmoil.

No more vicious attacking of one another, OK?

YES, YES and serious thread drifting here.

I'll reissue my point,

A strong focus on Science, math, Arts and Musics are being overshadowed by bureaucratic faux multi cultural pandering, while other nations are successfully focused the BASICS!

Why limit MY Children to only ONE foreign language? I want a choice and I do not. having one language, that I, the PARENT SEE LITTLE ACEDEMIC VALUE IN, shoved into my kids brain!

I work in a global economy, and I see the real world differently!

Exactly!

I like that languages are offered, that is a good thing. Requiring a 1st grader to learn one is a whole different issue. An issue I believe in time will prove itself to be a mistake.

Meanwhile, we are paying for it and will pay more in the long run.

[bergsteiger]

richardkelsey said:

Let's stay on topic.

Topic is state mandate on Borough schools to require learning Spanish.

To me -- the issues in this thread are:

1) state rights to mandate

2) Decision of state to mandate Spanish.

Let's keep our posts related to those subjects. (by related -- I mean a close first cousin.)

How do we get out of this mess is the question?

[Freehold Resident]

Having a first grader learn it??

Don't you know that that is the best time to teach things like languages and music to a child? That's when children soak it up like a sponge. I know people who know ten languages. Learning one extra one isn't a big deal at such a young age. If you wait until they're in HS or College, that is when I agree it is much harder. In addition to English, I have studied Spanish, Italian and French, but because I studied them throughout HS and College, they were MUCH harder to soak in. Same thing happened with guitar.

FR

[bergsteiger]

Freehold said:

Having a first grader learn it??

Don't you know that that is the best time to teach things like languages and music to a child? That's when children soak it up like a sponge. I know people who know ten languages. Learning one extra one isn't a big deal at such a young age. If you wait until they're in HS or College, that is when I agree it is much harder. In addition to English, I have studied Spanish, Italian and French, but because I studied them throughout HS and College, they were MUCH harder to soak in. Same thing happened with guitar.

FR

Do you think a parent has the right to opt out if they wish? Or does the state have the right to force my child into the class?

[Freehold Resident]

Well, the parent selectively taking them out of the class kind of sounds like one step away from home schooling, doesn't it?

I think the parent should follow the curriculum OR be able to choose which secondary language they would like their child to learn. However, I don't think it would make much sense to teach a child a language such as German or Hindi, since the main languages really bordering us are Spanish and French.

FR

[bergsteiger]

Freehold said:

Well, the parent selectively taking them out of the class kind of sounds like one step away from home schooling, doesn't it?

I think the parent should follow the curriculum OR be able to choose which secondary language they would like their child to learn. However, I don't think it would make much sense to teach a child a language such as German or Hindi, since the main languages really bordering us are Spanish and French.

FR

Home schooling is a different issue that we could start another post for.

I was kind of looking for a yes no answer. Let’s try this again.

Should the state have the right to force Spanish on my 5 year old against my will?

My answer is no.

My reason. As I mentioned in a previous post. My son is currently in his first year of Med School and a Captain in the Air Force. He only speaks one language. He has no interest in speaking Spanish. He feels as though the few years of German and French was a waste of his time and more English instruction would have better prepared him for his SAT, MCAT and his Career. Not being able to speak a foreign language has not held him back in the career he chose but lack of quality English instruction he feels has.

Note. He is much better in English then I am.

[Freehold Resident]

But my question to you is, if we start allowing parents to outline their children's curriculum, isn't that one step away from home schooling?

I mean, where would it end? We'd have parents saying they don't want their children to take Math, they don't want them to take gym, no art, no etc etc etc.

Right?

FR

[fiberisgoodforyou]

Yes, Yes...quality English instruction !!!

First and formost, let our kids MASTER reading and writing in english, reading the classics in english, mastering the foundation through which the AMERICAN Culture has been captured on the written word!

AND MORE IMPORTANTLY, let the parent decide, not a school administrator!

Last night my seven and two six year olds and I started reading A Brief History of Time by Stephen Hawkings, THEY LOVED IT, mostly understood the content and want to learn more!

[fiberisgoodforyou]

Freehold said:

But my question to you is, if we start allowing parents to outline their children's curriculum, isn't that one step away from home schooling?

I mean, where would it end? We'd have parents saying they don't want their children to take Math, they don't want them to take gym, no art, no etc etc etc.

Right?

FR

You are missing the point! First, I want a choice Spanish, French, Hebrew, Italian, Cantoneese..... Second, The Basics are First, Math Reading and Writing, Science, Music, Art. Adoption is a second language is just that Secondary! IMO

Most CEO's in the US speak ENGLISH!

[Freehold Resident]

I don't disagree with you, but I'm saying that if you give parents the choice to have their children opt out of certain classes, change them, etc., you are giving the parent power to change the curriculum, which is basically the same as home schooling.

I'm not questioning what you are saying specifically, I'm questioning how something like that would work without it being detrimental to everyone in the school.

FR

[Casual Reader]

Figarola Dude:

Language is not secondary -- It opens up whole new worlds.

When it comes to your list that is a bit long -- I can see two or three options being offered. That is a subject worthy of debate. I think Spanish, Chinese, Russian are all good choices.

But, if you have only one - Spanish is a good place to start. They are our neighbors to the south and the percentage of Spanish speakers is growing in US so it is a great choice.

By the way, the interview was great -- Finally some entertaining posts instead of negativity and immigrant bashing.

Casualmente escribiendo espanol

[bergsteiger]

Freehold said:

But my question to you is, if we start allowing parents to outline their children's curriculum, isn't that one step away from home schooling?

I mean, where would it end? We'd have parents saying they don't want their children to take Math, they don't want them to take gym, no art, no etc etc etc.

Right?

FR

No, it’s not even close to home schooling. Never before in history were children required to learn a language other then English in the first grade now they are. I think it’s a bad idea and I told you why. You told me nothing, not a yes, not a No or any reason to support the issue one way or other.

Should the state have the right to force Spanish on my 5 year old against my will?

[fiberisgoodforyou]

Freehold said:

you are giving the parent power to change the curriculum, which is basically the same as home schooling.

FR

A parent is still required to follow the core curriculum when the child is home schooled!

There are no mandate that a child must learn Spanish, just that the child is taught one of the 10+ world languages. There Boro offers no choice, I disapprove of the single choice, I want choice!

What foreign language are the ESL students to learn?

And again, a Second language is SECONDARY to the BASICS! Remember the 3R's

[fiberisgoodforyou]

Casual said:

Figarola Dude:

Language is not secondary -- It opens up whole new worlds.

When it comes to your list that is a bit long -- I can see two or three options being offered. That is a subject worthy of debate. I think Spanish, Chinese, Russian are all good choices.

But, if you have only one - Spanish is a good place to start. They are our neighbors to the south and the percentage of Spanish speakers is growing in US so it is a great choice.

By the way, the interview was great -- Finally some entertaining posts instead of negativity and immigrant bashing.

Casualmente escribiendo espanol

Bartender, yet another round for our welcomed good friend C*a*s*u*a*l - R*e*a*d*e*r, more merriment!

[Casual Reader]

Figola Dude has inspired me to write a Haiku. I dedicate this piece of poetry to him.

Haiku for Freehold Borough Schools

Spanish so Groovy
Monolingual Dorks Oppress Us
Open Up To The World


Casually Following the Muse

[fiberisgoodforyou]

Casual said:

Figola Dude has inspired me to write a Haiku. I dedicate this piece of poetry to him.

Haiku for Freehold Borough Schools

Spanish so Groovy
Monolingual Dorks Oppress Us
Open Up To The World


Casually Following the Muse

Bartender, a double, double round of Hot Plum Sake on the rocks for our welcomed good friend the ever so Nichiren Shoshu-ist C*a*s*u*a*l - R*e*a*d*e*r, !

[Zeus]

Since we will see a large increase in the Hispanic population in the US over the next few decades it make sense to teach student in the US Spanish as a first choice.

As the Hispanic population increases in the US we will also see a parallel increase in business conducted with Latin American countries, in the past this was not the case, and Spanish was not as critical of a tool as it will be in the next few decades.

Actually some would argue that Spanish is critical to the US economy and politics now. Most, if not all, major US corporations have a press 1 for Spanish; you’d be hard press to find a customer service line that doesn’t have an option for Spanish. Not to mention that all of the presidential candidates in the last election pronounced speeches or portions of them in Spanish.

Frankly as it stands today I don’t see any way that the US can prevent becoming a bilingual country within the next fifty years or so. Then why not give our children an edge and teach them the language that is now so ubiquitous in the US, and will continue to see a dramatic increase in the future throughout the US.
______________________________________________


Census Bureau Projects Tripling of Hispanic and
Asian Populations in 50 Years; Non-Hispanic Whites
May Drop To Half of Total Population


The nation’s Hispanic and Asian populations would triple over the next half century and non-Hispanic whites would represent about one-half of the total population by 2050, according to interim population projections released today by the U.S. Census Bureau.

Overall, the country’s population would continue to grow, increasing from 282.1 million in 2000 to 419.9 million in 2050. However, after 2030 the rate of increase might be the slowest since the Great Depression of the 1930s as the size of the “baby boom” population continues to decline.

Still, the nation’s projected 49 percent population increase during the next 50 years would be in sharp contrast to most European countries, whose populations are expected to decline by mid-century.

(Statements on race groups in this news release are limited to the single-race white, black, and Asian populations and do not cover other single-race groups or the population of two or more races.) The federal government treats Hispanic origin and race as distinct concepts. (See U.S. Census Bureau Guidance on the Presentation and Comparison of Race and Hispanic Origin Data.)

From 2000 to 2050, the non-Hispanic, white population would increase from 195.7 million to 210.3 million, an increase of 14.6 million or 7 percent. This group is projected to actually lose population in the 2040s and would comprise just 50.1 percent of the total population in 2050, compared with 69.4 percent in 2000. (See Table 1 [Excel].)

Nearly 67 million people of Hispanic origin (who may be of any race) would be added to the nation’s population between 2000 and 2050. Their numbers are projected to grow from 35.6 million to 102.6 million, an increase of 188 percent. Their share of the nation’s population would nearly double, from 12.6 percent to 24.4 percent.

The Asian population is projected to grow 213 percent, from 10.7 million to 33.4 million. Their share of the nation’s population would double, from 3.8 percent to 8 percent.

The black population is projected to rise from 35.8 million to 61.4 million in 2050, an increase of about 26 million or 71 percent. That would raise their share of the country’s population from 12.7 percent to 14.6 percent.

The country’s population also is expected to become older. Childbearing rates are expected to remain low while baby-boomers — people born between 1946 and 1964 — begin to turn 65 in 2011. By 2030, about 1-in-5 people would be 65 or over.

The female population is projected to continue to outnumber the male population, going from a numerical difference of 5.3 million in 2000 (143.7 million females and 138.4 million males) to 6.9 million (213.4 million females and 206.5 million males) by mid-century. (See Table 2 [Excel].)

The projections for the resident population of the United States are by age, sex, race (including the categories white, black, Asian and “all other races”) and Hispanic origin. They are based on Census 2000 results and assumptions about future childbearing, mortality and international migration.

[fiberisgoodforyou]

Zeus said:

Since we will see a large increase in the Hispanic population in the US over the next few decades it make sense to teach student in the US Spanish as a first choice.

As the Hispanic population increases in the US we will also see a parallel increase in business conducted with Latin American countries, in the past this was not the case, and Spanish was not as critical of a tool as it will be in the next few decades.

Actually some would argue that Spanish is critical to the US economy and politics now. Most, if not all, major US corporations have a press 1 for Spanish; you’d be hard press to find a customer service line that doesn’t have an option for Spanish. Not to mention that all of the presidential candidates in the last election pronounced speeches or portions of them in Spanish.

Frankly as it stands today I don’t see any way that the US can prevent becoming a bilingual country within the next fifty years or so. Then why not give our children an edge and teach them the language that is now so ubiquitous in the US, and will continue to see a dramatic increase in the future throughout the US.
______________________________________________

And please explain why the "New Immigrants" do not need to assimilate to the native language over the next five years?

Is there a double standard for the Spanish speaking immigrants vs every other immigrant group that arrived here for the last 231
years.

I say Nyet, I'm not buying what your selling, but at least you have enough class to bring your facts to the table here.

[Marc LeVine]

No, it’s not even close to home schooling. Never before in history were children required to learn a language other then English in the first grade now they are. I think it’s a bad idea and I told you why. You told me nothing, not a yes, not a No or any reason to support the issue one way or other.

Should the state have the right to force Spanish on my 5 year old against my will?

Required? No they shouldn't be. I WOULD expect there to be a mandated CORE curriculum that should include Reading, English (writing, grammar spelling, etc.) and Math/Science. Social Studies/History/Geography, Health & Hygiene and Physical Education should form the second tier of study. Exposure to the Arts including Music is also within that second tier to inspire creativity.

In my opinion, before grade 5, Foreign Language should only be an elective, at best. There is plenty listed above to round out a 6 hour day that also includes lunch and recess.

Too much is being forced on today's children in a 6 hour school day. This is why they are not mastering the basics, very well.

Spanish? See many of the resumes I get from college graduates and cringe. These candidates haven't even mastered the English language. Colleges and corporations spend too much time and money RE-TEACHING the basic skills to people, who should have learned them better in elementary school.

Remember, I represent many employers and this is what they want - solid communication skills; (usually) strong analytical skills and computer literacy, for starters. There is some call for foreign language aptitude and it usually is Spanish. But, that requirement usually ends up getting waived in favor of the strong basic skills needed to handle the responsibilities of the job. When Bilingual jobs are available, I also find that my clients most often select native speakers over those, who learned the foreign language as a second language.

It's better to teach children the basics and how to learn and then turn them loose on the world. Give them a solid foundation of the basics and inspire them to soak up applicable knowledge, rather than just how to navigate their way through to graduation.

There is a proper time and place for electives like foreign language and it's not right away. With each child there is a different set of competencies and interests, anyway. Do they really know that they want to learn Spanish versus French in the 1st grade? My son flunked Spanish and then got straight A's in French. Why was that?

Help children become better prepared to make future choices (e.g. languages) and then expose them to several alternatives. That's diversity (of thinking) at its best!

Better that they be prepared to succeed at home FIRST and abroad, LATER.

Marc

[Marc LeVine]

Census Bureau Projects Tripling of Hispanic and
Asian Populations in 50 Years

Zeus...so, why is no one (educators) placing an emphasis on the Asian side of the equation? My wife works for AAA in Marlboro and they see that a growing number of residents from Marlboro and Manalapan are either Asian or Russian. If the Asian population is also set to triple, why not any thought of their languages? The focus is too much on Spanish and not enough on other cultures the emigrate here.

Just go to Iselin (Edison Township) and see how handy speaking an Indian dialect comes in - though most of those folks learned English before they even came here.

Most of the EU is not primarily Spanish speaking, either. Are they not a social force to be recognized, too? The Asians? How about the Arab speaking middle east? The military is dying for people who speak Farsi and can't find any.

If people want to start thinking GLOBALLY, this is also a great place to start. Choices... for a Globalized world.

Marc

[Zeus]

Marc, the Asian’s do emphasize the need to learn their native language to their children, in many areas where Asian’s have significant numbers they have weekend schools for their children to learn their native language (I know I have many friends that send their children to these schools).

Your point about public education emphasizing Spanish, well there is just better lobbying from this community then there is from the Asian and Easter Europeans, this is just the bottom line.

Not to mention a very large economic need, for instance in NYC the number one radio talk show is a Spanish speaking talk show, do you think that advertisers will pay top-dollars to promote their products in this show (you bet) they don’t care that it is in Spanish, they just want to sale their products. Newly arrived Latinos in the US may not speak English, but their dollars DO, and corporations know this fact.

Another thing that my Asian friends and I discuss often is their lack of political participation and involvement, although we see some involvement at local levels now, nationally their involvement is non-existence. Hey, but one never know, maybe in a few more decades we will be arguing about why our children have to learn Hindi or Mandarin in first grade!

Marc said:

Census Bureau Projects Tripling of Hispanic and
Asian Populations in 50 Years

Zeus...so, why is no one (educators) placing an emphasis on the Asian side of the equation? My wife works for AAA in Marlboro and they see that a growing number of residents from Marlboro and Manalapan are either Asian or Russian. If the Asian population is also set to triple, why not any thought of their languages? The focus is too much on Spanish and not enough on other cultures the emigrate here.

Just go to Iselin (Edison Township) and see how handy speaking an Indian dialect comes in - though most of those folks learned English before they even came here.

Most of the EU is not primarily Spanish speaking, either. Are they not a social force to be recognized, too? The Asians? How about the Arab speaking middle east? The military is dying for people who speak Farsi and can't find any.

If people want to start thinking GLOBALLY, this is also a great place to start. Choices... for a Globalized world.

Marc

[bergsteiger]

Marc said:

No, it’s not even close to home schooling. Never before in history were children required to learn a language other then English in the first grade now they are. I think it’s a bad idea and I told you why. You told me nothing, not a yes, not a No or any reason to support the issue one way or other.

Should the state have the right to force Spanish on my 5 year old against my will?

Required? No they shouldn't be. I WOULD expect there to be a mandated CORE curriculum that should include Reading, English (writing, grammar spelling, etc.) and Math/Science. Social Studies/History/Geography, Health & Hygiene and Physical Education should form the second tier of study. Exposure to the Arts including Music is also within that second tier to inspire creativity.

In my opinion, before grade 5, Foreign Language should only be an elective, at best. There is plenty listed above to round out a 6 hour day that also includes lunch and recess.

Too much is being forced on today's children in a 6 hour school day. This is why they are not mastering the basics, very well.

Spanish? See many of the resumes I get from college graduates and cringe. These candidates haven't even mastered the English language. Colleges and corporations spend too much time and money RE-TEACHING the basic skills to people, who should have learned them better in elementary school.

Remember, I represent many employers and this is what they want - solid communication skills; (usually) strong analytical skills and computer literacy, for starters. There is some call for foreign language aptitude and it usually is Spanish. But, that requirement usually ends up getting waived in favor of the strong basic skills needed to handle the responsibilities of the job. When Bilingual jobs are available, I also find that my clients most often select native speakers over those, who learned the foreign language as a second language.

It's better to teach children the basics and how to learn and then turn them loose on the world. Give them a solid foundation of the basics and inspire them to soak up applicable knowledge, rather than just how to navigate their way through to graduation.

There is a proper time and place for electives like foreign language and it's not right away. With each child there is a different set of competencies and interests, anyway. Do they really know that they want to learn Spanish versus French in the 1st grade? My son flunked Spanish and then got straight A's in French. Why was that?

Help children become better prepared to make future choices (e.g. languages) and then expose them to several alternatives. That's diversity (of thinking) at its best!

Better that they be prepared to succeed at home FIRST and abroad, LATER.

Marc

That’s what I was thinking. ;D