constructive dialogue on day laborers

[jefffriedman]

The goal of this thread is to begin a constructive dialogue on the critical issues of loitering and the day laborers. This issue is necessary to address in order to improve the quality of life for all residents, property owners, visitors, and Main Street Businesses. I believe this is important because until this issue is addressed the Boro will not be able to revitalize the downtown to the extent that residents, property owners, visitors, and Main Street Businesses need and want. There are great things going on downtown, but I believe that until this issue is addressed the Boro will be paralyzed
.
1. The Train Tracks: Throckmorton to Train (Bus) station through to South/Mechanic Streets.
A. Trash: Throckmorton, West Main, and South Street are 3 of the 5 main entry roads into downtown and they all intersect the tracks. These intersections are eye sours because there is always trash everywhere. The trash alone would discourage visitors as that is there first impression of the downtown. The trash causes problem for the residents, property owners (property value), visitors, and the Main Street businesses.

B. Criminals/Vagrants: There was a shooting on Throckmorton last year. There are bums in the summer sleeping behind dumpsters and prostitutes plying their trade. They loiter around and cause problem for the residents, property owners (property value), visitors, and in turn the Main Street businesses.

C. Day Laborers: It must be acknowledged that a vast majority of the people standing around are good hard working people only asking to work hard for a day’s wage. It must also be acknowledged that many are in this country illegally. Whether one agrees or not with their presence here is not up for debate as immigration is an essentially federal issue. These immigrants are here, they living their lives, raising there families and we must address the issue the best we can on the local level. Whether they are here illegally or not I believe that it is inhuman, to allow these men to stand in the coldest of January days, day in and day through to the hottest of the Augusts nights in a market waiting for a bidder. Something must be done: this is a moral and ethical imperative; it is equally an economical imperative. The very large number of people standing around waiting for work creates a ton of trash and causes problems for the residents, property owners (property value), visitors, and in turn the Main Street businesses.
It must be noted that the large number of people standing around creating trash would be a problem regardless of national origin or immigration status as the social, ethical, and economic problems that are created by the mustering would occur regardless of whether the musters were all white, all black, all hispanic, all pink poke dotted people, or if the group of day laborers mustering were equally diverse.

D. A way must be found to stop the non-criminal day laborers from loitering around the train track corroder which will allow authorities to better identify true criminals and vagrants who presently lurk in the mist of the day laborers.
The boro lost a law suit regarding the day laborers’ muster zone but I am under the impression that the muster zone was on Throckmorton past Rhea Street. The muster zone must be enforced until a permanent solution is found.

Worker Bank Plan (Laborer Run): (A very broad idea based on the practical realization that the day laborers, both the ones that are here legally and illegally are here, and that we on the local level can not change that, regardless of whether one believes that they should be allowed to stay of forced to go back)
Workers set up a “Worker Register”. They need a sectary, a computer with internet access, a phone and a printer. Workers who are standing around are given the number of the Worker Register, on cards printer by the sectary, told to call that number for work and that loitering will no longer be tolerated. The workers call, text or email the worker Register’s office, the sectary asks what type of work they do, if they have a specialization, and for their cell phone number. The contractors would call or email the Workers Register the day before and order worker like a temp agency and pay a fee. The Workers Register secretary would text, via computer, to the cell phones of the next qualified workers on the list where the job pickup site is and pay scale. The worker can then reply yes or no. There would be pickup sites like bus stops throughout boro, even the county, to limit gathering in one place.
This plan may be done in conjunction with a “muster hall” or the muster zone ,Which I oppose, as a way to limit the gathering in other places around town, namely Broad and Throckmorton.
This does not address the tax implications to the companies who use these workers, nor does it address equitable pay, Workers Comp. insurance or the myriad of other issues connected with the national immigration situation.
It will be argued from one side that any acknowledgement of, or infrastructure that addresses the needs of the workers will further increase the number of workers coming to Freehold. I believe that they will come regardless.
It will also be argued that many workers will not use the service so the problem will not go away. In order to get any plan to work the organizations supporting the day laborers must be brought in on the ground floor.
It will be argued from the other side that any attempt to “regulate” how and where laborers “advertise” there services violates there first amendment rights and is discriminatory. That argument fails because no one wants to prevent speech or assembly, we want to prevent loitering and trash accumulation. It also fails because I do not care if they are day laborers or lawyers people should be standing around or sitting on milk crates on corners all day creating trash.
It will also be argued that any attempt to regulate the day laborers activities is inhumane. I believe the present situation is inhumane and undignified for the day laborers’.
We must address the humanitarian and economic factors the present situation has created. We must try and do something to give these workers the opportunity to have a more dignified existence while addressing economic and aesthetic issues created by the day laborers large and growing “mustering zone”. These ideas will allow these day laborers to stay indoors at home while waiting for work which will benefit them by not forcing them to wait in the elements. It will help the Boro residents, property owners and businesses because it will reduce the trash accumulation, which will encourage revitalization of the track zone and improve the quality of life for all residents legal or illegal. It will also allow authorities the ability to use their resources in addressing the vagrants and true criminals that there after remain. To not address this problem will continue to cause problems for the residents, property owners (property value), visitors, and in turn the Main Street businesses.

[admin]

Jeff,

Welcome to the site, it is good to hear from you. I agree that there are many unresolved issues that need to be dealt with. I like this thread. I may even open this up so that all readers can see it.

I will respond to your ideas later. I hope some others will too.

Brian

[admin]

I am moving this thread to the "anything freehold" board because I have received complaints that some registered site participants cannot see the board it started on.

[jefffriedman]

Lisa,
Local loitering laws have been found to be unconstitutional because they conflict with the state statutes. The state statutes however do allow police to prevent gathering if there is another reasonable location for the people in question to assemble. Here in Freehold there is another location for them to gather – The official muster zone not downtown near Broad Street.

Current state law (N.J.S.A. 2C:33-7) can be enforced now (text of statute below) because there is an official muster zone which allows the day laborers to assemble in a specific location as required.

I believe however that if we as a community can come up with a better way, a more humane, dignified and orderly process for the day laborers, like the one I suggested it the initial post, it would be easier for local authorities’ to deal with the people who do not use the provided services. I also believe that it is necessary to have an alternative to the muster zone because I believe, for the reasons stated in my initial post; the muster zone is morally questionable and economically detrimental.
I agree that littering laws should be enfoced better but that will be difficult until the number of people gatering is reduced.

N.J.S.A. 2C:33-7 states: “Obstructing Highways and Other Public Passages. a. A person, who, having no legal privilege to do so, purposely or recklessly obstructs any highway or other public passage whether alone or with others, commits a petty disorderly persons offense. "Obstructs" means renders impassable without unreasonable inconvenience or hazard. No person shall be deemed guilty of recklessly obstructing in violation of this subsection solely because of a gathering of persons to hear him speak or otherwise communicate, or solely because of being a member of such a gathering.

b. A person in a gathering commits a petty disorderly persons offense if he refuses to obey a reasonable official request or order to move:

(1) To prevent obstruction of a highway or other public passage; or

(2) To maintain public safety by dispersing those gathered in dangerous proximity to a fire or other hazard.

An order to move, addressed to a person whose speech or other lawful behavior attracts an obstructing audience, shall not be deemed reasonable if the obstruction can be readily remedied by police control of the size or location of the gathering.”

[admin]

An order to move, addressed to a person whose speech or other lawful behavior attracts an obstructing audience, shall not be deemed reasonable if the obstruction can be readily remedied by police control of the size or location of the gathering.”

Does that pertain to inidviduals or organized groups?

On the same topic, I have had my own idea which was never printed here. I asked two different lawyers what they thought of my idea. Both said it could be legal, but would trigger a law suit which this town does not have the stomach for.

I will get back to the muster zone issues later.

[admin]

B. Criminals/Vagrants: There was a shooting on Throckmorton last year. There are bums in the summer sleeping behind dumpsters and prostitutes plying their trade. They loiter around and cause problem for the residents, property owners (property value), visitors, and in turn the Main Street businesses

I wanted to get back to this topic first. Being that most of this thread pertains to illegal imigrants and day laborers, I have to mention that caution should be used. It is not fair or right to tie criminal activity just to one group. Although stats may tell us one thing, practices have to be applied evenly and fairly so as to avoid profiling issues.

Crime in this town is a general problem and a real one. The State police stats have us listed as number three in Monmouth County for violent crime. That really needs to change.

[jefffriedman]

Admin,
I agree completely with that the criminals and vagrants should not be lumped in with the hard working day laborers.
In my post I clearly separate the two issues; Section B, Section C, and Section D.
Section B expresses my concern about the criminal element that needs to be addressed.
Section C expresses my view that "it must be acknowledged that a vast majority of the people standing around are good hard working people only asking to work hard for a day’s wage." Section D clearly states "D. A way must be found to stop the non-criminal day laborers from loitering around the train track corroder which will allow authorities to better identify true criminals and vagrants who presently lurk in the mist of the day laborers."
I think that the day laborers get blamed for a lot of activity that they are not responsible for. That is why it would be better for all if an orderly dignified humane processes was established to help the day laborers get work while. I believe that my post does not "tie criminal activity just to one group” I believe that my post clearly separates the criminals from the day laborers. I hope you were not implying that my post tied the two groups together. The two issues must be addressed together because establishing an orderly way for the day laborers to get work will allow authorities to address the true criminal element without harassing the day laborers.

[admin]

Aug 12, 2009 6:09:45 GMT -5 jefffriedman said:

Admin,
I agree completely with that the criminals and vagrants should not be lumped in with the hard working day laborers.
In my post I clearly separate the two issues; Section B, Section C, and Section D.
Section B expresses my concern about the criminal element that needs to be addressed.
Section C expresses my view that "it must be acknowledged that a vast majority of the people standing around are good hard working people only asking to work hard for a day’s wage." Section D clearly states "D. A way must be found to stop the non-criminal day laborers from loitering around the train track corroder which will allow authorities to better identify true criminals and vagrants who presently lurk in the mist of the day laborers."
I think that the day laborers get blamed for a lot of activity that they are not responsible for. That is why it would be better for all if an orderly dignified humane processes was established to help the day laborers get work while. I believe that my post does not "tie criminal activity just to one group” I believe that my post clearly separates the criminals from the day laborers. I hope you were not implying that my post tied the two groups together. The two issues must be addressed together because establishing an orderly way for the day laborers to get work will allow authorities to address the true criminal element without harassing the day laborers.

Jeff,

My apologies if it seamed that I implied that you were lumping the day laborers in as the group responsible for all or most criminal activity. Your post was very clear.

In my early morning state of mind, my intent was simply to emphasize to all readers, and possible participants, that criminal activity belongs to all groups. I simply believe that was a point worth accentuating. Too often when discussing a contentious issue like the ones in this thread, some people will have a natural defense and take things way off topic. I was simply attempting to nip it in the butt before anyone posted along those lines. So, my post was more a general statement and not so much directed at you.

[admin]

Aug 9, 2009 21:04:25 GMT -5 jefffriedman said:

The goal of this thread is to begin a constructive dialogue on the critical issues of loitering and the day laborers. This issue is necessary to address in order to improve the quality of life for all residents, property owners, visitors, and Main Street Businesses. I believe this is important because until this issue is addressed the Boro will not be able to revitalize the downtown to the extent that residents, property owners, visitors, and Main Street Businesses need and want. There are great things going on downtown, but I believe that until this issue is addressed the Boro will be paralyzed
.
1. The Train Tracks: Throckmorton to Train (Bus) station through to South/Mechanic Streets.
A. Trash: Throckmorton, West Main, and South Street are 3 of the 5 main entry roads into downtown and they all intersect the tracks. These intersections are eye sours because there is always trash everywhere. The trash alone would discourage visitors as that is there first impression of the downtown. The trash causes problem for the residents, property owners (property value), visitors, and the Main Street businesses.

B. Criminals/Vagrants: There was a shooting on Throckmorton last year. There are bums in the summer sleeping behind dumpsters and prostitutes plying their trade. They loiter around and cause problem for the residents, property owners (property value), visitors, and in turn the Main Street businesses.

C. Day Laborers: It must be acknowledged that a vast majority of the people standing around are good hard working people only asking to work hard for a day’s wage. It must also be acknowledged that many are in this country illegally. Whether one agrees or not with their presence here is not up for debate as immigration is an essentially federal issue. These immigrants are here, they living their lives, raising there families and we must address the issue the best we can on the local level. Whether they are here illegally or not I believe that it is inhuman, to allow these men to stand in the coldest of January days, day in and day through to the hottest of the Augusts nights in a market waiting for a bidder. Something must be done: this is a moral and ethical imperative; it is equally an economical imperative. The very large number of people standing around waiting for work creates a ton of trash and causes problems for the residents, property owners (property value), visitors, and in turn the Main Street businesses.
It must be noted that the large number of people standing around creating trash would be a problem regardless of national origin or immigration status as the social, ethical, and economic problems that are created by the mustering would occur regardless of whether the musters were all white, all black, all hispanic, all pink poke dotted people, or if the group of day laborers mustering were equally diverse.

D. A way must be found to stop the non-criminal day laborers from loitering around the train track corroder which will allow authorities to better identify true criminals and vagrants who presently lurk in the mist of the day laborers.
The boro lost a law suit regarding the day laborers’ muster zone but I am under the impression that the muster zone was on Throckmorton past Rhea Street. The muster zone must be enforced until a permanent solution is found.

Worker Bank Plan (Laborer Run): (A very broad idea based on the practical realization that the day laborers, both the ones that are here legally and illegally are here, and that we on the local level can not change that, regardless of whether one believes that they should be allowed to stay of forced to go back)
Workers set up a “Worker Register”. They need a sectary, a computer with internet access, a phone and a printer. Workers who are standing around are given the number of the Worker Register, on cards printer by the sectary, told to call that number for work and that loitering will no longer be tolerated. The workers call, text or email the worker Register’s office, the sectary asks what type of work they do, if they have a specialization, and for their cell phone number. The contractors would call or email the Workers Register the day before and order worker like a temp agency and pay a fee. The Workers Register secretary would text, via computer, to the cell phones of the next qualified workers on the list where the job pickup site is and pay scale. The worker can then reply yes or no. There would be pickup sites like bus stops throughout boro, even the county, to limit gathering in one place.
This plan may be done in conjunction with a “muster hall” or the muster zone ,Which I oppose, as a way to limit the gathering in other places around town, namely Broad and Throckmorton.
This does not address the tax implications to the companies who use these workers, nor does it address equitable pay, Workers Comp. insurance or the myriad of other issues connected with the national immigration situation.
It will be argued from one side that any acknowledgement of, or infrastructure that addresses the needs of the workers will further increase the number of workers coming to Freehold. I believe that they will come regardless.
It will also be argued that many workers will not use the service so the problem will not go away. In order to get any plan to work the organizations supporting the day laborers must be brought in on the ground floor.
It will be argued from the other side that any attempt to “regulate” how and where laborers “advertise” there services violates there first amendment rights and is discriminatory. That argument fails because no one wants to prevent speech or assembly, we want to prevent loitering and trash accumulation. It also fails because I do not care if they are day laborers or lawyers people should be standing around or sitting on milk crates on corners all day creating trash.
It will also be argued that any attempt to regulate the day laborers activities is inhumane. I believe the present situation is inhumane and undignified for the day laborers’.
We must address the humanitarian and economic factors the present situation has created. We must try and do something to give these workers the opportunity to have a more dignified existence while addressing economic and aesthetic issues created by the day laborers large and growing “mustering zone”. These ideas will allow these day laborers to stay indoors at home while waiting for work which will benefit them by not forcing them to wait in the elements. It will help the Boro residents, property owners and businesses because it will reduce the trash accumulation, which will encourage revitalization of the track zone and improve the quality of life for all residents legal or illegal. It will also allow authorities the ability to use their resources in addressing the vagrants and true criminals that there after remain. To not address this problem will continue to cause problems for the residents, property owners (property value), visitors, and in turn the Main Street businesses.

I like this post. It is realistic, respects the different view points, shows the humane elements to the issues, and offers solutions. This is important when we consider that entirely too much of these topics have come to a standstill in this town. A post like this and a discussion like this is a very good start. The tone is right on the money. A few too many people have opted for the rose colored glasses and that is dangerous and wrongheaded. Just because these things have not been discussed openly, does not mean the issues and concerns, that all people have, have gone away. The concerns are still here and have to be dealt with.

When I read this post, I see things that I both agree with and disagree with. With as much as is in it, most people will probably think the same. Maybe over time we can dissect this a bit more and keep this dialog going in a constructive way. And this site is a good place for it, many of the right eyes read this site.

When I read this a couple of things come to mind. Before I changed my avatar and screen name, I had the phrase "practice unity in our community" under my name. I meant it and still believe in that with few exeptions. That is the key to our future.

I am also reminded that I have said that our town needs an independant and non partisan group to look at many issues including the ones above. When it comes to the above issue, I really believe that third party group of residents is needed because the people who should have helped, have not.

That starts with the governing body. They are great people and have done a lot of good for this town, but this is one issue that they have really screwed up badly. Some may call the illegal immmigration issue a federal one and they are right, but our locals are far more guilty of some of the failures we see than most people realize. ( yes, I could back this statement up very easily, but will not for now) I am afraid they would just keep making mistakes.

On the other side is the activist groups who have fought our town and in many many wasy hurt our town. These groups have been a very big disappointment. When we look at what they should have and could have done, they offer no hope for a better Freehold or building that unity in our community. This is another statement that I could easily go on about, but will save for later.

When considering the above two paragraphs, that means it is up to the residents to look at a number of issues. It is a fact that the illegal immigrant population is here. They have to be accepted and dealt with in a humane way. The question is, who do we leave that to? It is better start now in building unity than it is to wait for the wrong people to do these things for the wrong reasons and in the wrong way. Personally, I do have a ton of ideas. I know others have discussed this too, so I am not alone in this thinking.

[richardkelsey]

Aug 9, 2009 21:04:25 GMT -5 jefffriedman said:

The goal of this thread is to begin a constructive dialogue on the critical issues of loitering and the day laborers. This issue is necessary to address in order to improve the quality of life for all residents, property owners, visitors, and Main Street Businesses. I believe this is important because until this issue is addressed the Boro will not be able to revitalize the downtown to the extent that residents, property owners, visitors, and Main Street Businesses need and want. There are great things going on downtown, but I believe that until this issue is addressed the Boro will be paralyzed
.
1. The Train Tracks: Throckmorton to Train (Bus) station through to South/Mechanic Streets.
A. Trash: Throckmorton, West Main, and South Street are 3 of the 5 main entry roads into downtown and they all intersect the tracks. These intersections are eye sours because there is always trash everywhere. The trash alone would discourage visitors as that is there first impression of the downtown. The trash causes problem for the residents, property owners (property value), visitors, and the Main Street businesses.

B. Criminals/Vagrants: There was a shooting on Throckmorton last year. There are bums in the summer sleeping behind dumpsters and prostitutes plying their trade. They loiter around and cause problem for the residents, property owners (property value), visitors, and in turn the Main Street businesses.

C. Day Laborers: It must be acknowledged that a vast majority of the people standing around are good hard working people only asking to work hard for a day’s wage. It must also be acknowledged that many are in this country illegally. Whether one agrees or not with their presence here is not up for debate as immigration is an essentially federal issue. These immigrants are here, they living their lives, raising there families and we must address the issue the best we can on the local level. Whether they are here illegally or not I believe that it is inhuman, to allow these men to stand in the coldest of January days, day in and day through to the hottest of the Augusts nights in a market waiting for a bidder. Something must be done: this is a moral and ethical imperative; it is equally an economical imperative. The very large number of people standing around waiting for work creates a ton of trash and causes problems for the residents, property owners (property value), visitors, and in turn the Main Street businesses.
It must be noted that the large number of people standing around creating trash would be a problem regardless of national origin or immigration status as the social, ethical, and economic problems that are created by the mustering would occur regardless of whether the musters were all white, all black, all hispanic, all pink poke dotted people, or if the group of day laborers mustering were equally diverse.

D. A way must be found to stop the non-criminal day laborers from loitering around the train track corroder which will allow authorities to better identify true criminals and vagrants who presently lurk in the mist of the day laborers.
The boro lost a law suit regarding the day laborers’ muster zone but I am under the impression that the muster zone was on Throckmorton past Rhea Street. The muster zone must be enforced until a permanent solution is found.

Worker Bank Plan (Laborer Run): (A very broad idea based on the practical realization that the day laborers, both the ones that are here legally and illegally are here, and that we on the local level can not change that, regardless of whether one believes that they should be allowed to stay of forced to go back)
Workers set up a “Worker Register”. They need a sectary, a computer with internet access, a phone and a printer. Workers who are standing around are given the number of the Worker Register, on cards printer by the sectary, told to call that number for work and that loitering will no longer be tolerated. The workers call, text or email the worker Register’s office, the sectary asks what type of work they do, if they have a specialization, and for their cell phone number. The contractors would call or email the Workers Register the day before and order worker like a temp agency and pay a fee. The Workers Register secretary would text, via computer, to the cell phones of the next qualified workers on the list where the job pickup site is and pay scale. The worker can then reply yes or no. There would be pickup sites like bus stops throughout boro, even the county, to limit gathering in one place.
This plan may be done in conjunction with a “muster hall” or the muster zone ,Which I oppose, as a way to limit the gathering in other places around town, namely Broad and Throckmorton.
This does not address the tax implications to the companies who use these workers, nor does it address equitable pay, Workers Comp. insurance or the myriad of other issues connected with the national immigration situation.
It will be argued from one side that any acknowledgement of, or infrastructure that addresses the needs of the workers will further increase the number of workers coming to Freehold. I believe that they will come regardless.
It will also be argued that many workers will not use the service so the problem will not go away. In order to get any plan to work the organizations supporting the day laborers must be brought in on the ground floor.
It will be argued from the other side that any attempt to “regulate” how and where laborers “advertise” there services violates there first amendment rights and is discriminatory. That argument fails because no one wants to prevent speech or assembly, we want to prevent loitering and trash accumulation. It also fails because I do not care if they are day laborers or lawyers people should be standing around or sitting on milk crates on corners all day creating trash.
It will also be argued that any attempt to regulate the day laborers activities is inhumane. I believe the present situation is inhumane and undignified for the day laborers’.
We must address the humanitarian and economic factors the present situation has created. We must try and do something to give these workers the opportunity to have a more dignified existence while addressing economic and aesthetic issues created by the day laborers large and growing “mustering zone”. These ideas will allow these day laborers to stay indoors at home while waiting for work which will benefit them by not forcing them to wait in the elements. It will help the Boro residents, property owners and businesses because it will reduce the trash accumulation, which will encourage revitalization of the track zone and improve the quality of life for all residents legal or illegal. It will also allow authorities the ability to use their resources in addressing the vagrants and true criminals that there after remain. To not address this problem will continue to cause problems for the residents, property owners (property value), visitors, and in turn the Main Street businesses.

Well thought out and well written. Good luck.


A few quick points.

First - the Borough isn't touching loitering laws with a ten-foot pole. They not only got burned in Court, and settled a suit -- but they essentially put themselves under the watchful eye of a partisan left-wing group and a crack-pot Federal Judge. So -- in making policy, no one is sending the Brough Police -- and outstanding unit of men and women I might add, to the font lines of public policy. That shipped sailed when the Borough made mis-steps and then surrendered.

Second -- I don't know who would help these immigrants set up such a workers bank. I suppose NJ is now essentially a sanctuary state. Thus, doing so would likely not result in Federal prosecution. However, doing so is a Federal felony punishable by 5 years in prison and a 10K fine.

Other than that - you have identified the single biggest issue in Freehold. What do the law abiding people of Freehold do with all those people in Freehold who shouldn't be there?

Right now -- I think the strategy is to wait until Mr. Obama provides them a "path to citizenship." Because most people feel that is now inevitable in some form or another -- I hate to say you will not find many risk-takers on the policy side.

I do love the post though -- and the thoughtfulness.

[admin]

First - the Borough isn't touching loitering laws with a ten-foot pole. They not only got burned in Court, and settled a suit -- but they essentially put themselves under the watchful eye of a partisan left-wing group and a crack-pot Federal Judge. So -- in making policy, no one is sending the Borough Police -- and outstanding unit of men and women I might add, to the font lines of public policy. That shipped sailed when the Borough made mis-steps and then surrendered.

I think the judge is dead. Could be wrong. In hind sight, that law suit should not have been settled as it was.

Second -- I don't know who would help these immigrants set up such a workers bank. I suppose NJ is now essentially a sanctuary state. Thus, doing so would likely not result in Federal prosecution. However, doing so is a Federal felony punishable by 5 years in prison and a 10K fine.

Actually, they are organized,aided and getting away with it. See the above part about surrender.

Other than that - you have identified the single biggest issue in Freehold. What do the law abiding people of Freehold do with all those people in Freehold who shouldn't be there?

Those answers have changed. It will come down to building "unity in our community" or we will wind up with a very divided town. Some people do not want to hear that and I honestly have no idea who the right people will be to get that done. I have little faith in the usual suspects.

Right now -- I think the strategy is to wait until Mr. Obama provides them a "path to citizenship." Because most people feel that is now inevitable in some form or another -- I hate to say you will not find many risk-takers on the policy side.

The lack of risk taking is just why we have lost every step of the way. Rich, the history of this town will show that you were right all along. And nobody listened.


I do love the post though -- and the thoughtfulness

Ditto, It is a well thought out post and shows that this town has conversations ahead that need to be heard. My biggest questions are how to achieve Jeff's goals and not turn this town into a magnet, thus repeating the massive mistakes of the past?

[lisa]

Ditto, It is a well thought out post and shows that this town has conversations ahead that need to be heard. My biggest questions are how to achieve Jeff's goals and not turn this town into a magnet, thus repeating the massive mistakes of the past?

I hate to say it but this town is already a magnet and not that I'm against The Muster zone I’m actually not. But being we have one, it automatically attracts illegal’s. Think about it who's gonna check. If someone in that muster zone is there legally or illegally? We all know how migrating people have a historical habit of creating their own neighborhoods. That’s exactly what is and has been happening in the boro.