Greetings from inside the Rug Mill Towers.

[valetudo71]

I've been lurking for some time and with a bit of encouragement from Brian, I finally created an account.

I have been a tennant on the 'Family Side' of the Rug Mill Towers for about four years. I recently joined the Freehold Borough Rental Advisory Board, at the behest of Borough Councilman Marc LeVine, to address many concerns my fellow tennants have. Thus far, I am very pleased with how the Rental Board has afforded me the opportunity to become more of an advocate for those who feel they lack a voice in their own neighborhood. Board members have been very sympathetic to our needs and have expressed a willingness to help us bring some much needed change to the building.

Please feel free to ask me questions or share your opinions and perceptions of the Rug Mill Towers.

Thanks!

[admin]

A big welcome to you and I am glad you signed up. Your first post is encouraging. You are a person giving a voice to good people who need it and you are active in our community. Both are good things to see.

Keep us updated about the rental board. I am a very big supporter of that board and think it is good for everybody.

You will find that many perceptions of the Rug Mill are not good ones. Maybe you can and will enlighten us. Perceptions can be wrong.

Either way, a new voice such as yours is good to have. That is what the site is for. And I like your screen name. Very cool.

[novillero]

Valetudo,

Your brief e-mail actually brought up a lot of issues:

Can you advise us of what the Rental Advisory Board is currently working on? Are they hearing complaints, conducting hearings on a particular issue, etc?

Also, is there some sort of tenant committee within the Rug Mill that they could air their concerns? Or is this new board the best and only thing?

What are some of the changes that the tenants think are necessary? (The building is rather young, I'm curious if the issues are something that should have been taken into account before tenants even moved in)

p.s. Interesting quote for someone on the rental advisory board, though I believe it is from the capitalist Adam Smith. Of course, without landlords, many of us would have no place to live. Landlords are a blessing for those that cannot afford to buy a place of their own. (I understand that a bad landlord is an absolute curse.)

[valetudo71]

Brian and Lisa --

Thanks for the kind words and support. The civility demonstrated by folks on this board is a nice alternative to Topix (lol). Brian, you are correct in that a person's perception may not always coincide with reality. The Rug Mill has been a subject of scrutiny among many who have never stepped foot in it... I can tell you, however, that it is not the most desirable place to call home. I mentioned to Marc that I have an appt. Monday to tour an apartment elswhere in the Borough. If I am pleased with what I see, there's no turning back.

novillero, thanks for your interest in the ol' mill I had a few family members that were employed at the A&M Karagheusian Rug Mill back in the day. In my opinion, the folks on the Rental Advisory Board are great people who really love the town. We are concerned about such things as overcrowding, quality of life issues, and fostering good relations between tenants and landlords (regardless of ideology or partisan allegiances... lol).

A few of us at the Rug Mill are trying to form a tenant committee, however, it's difficult to get people involved when they feel they are setting themselves up for disappointment. The building will undergo major renovations very soon, e.g., installation of surveillance cameras, new carpeting and freshly painted walls are part of the the project. The rental staff and maintenance crew are amazing, and always lend us a helping hand when needed.

Lisa, I requested you as a friend on facebook... Don't be shy

nov, I had a feeling someone would take notice of that quote below my avatar (lol). It was taken from Marx's "Economic and Philosophical Manuscripts of 1844" (also referred to as The Paris Manuscripts), in which he actually supports Adam Smith's assertion that the conception of rent has it's roots in monopoly of land ownership. Although the neocon Right -- hardly conservative by any stretch of Bill Buckley's or Barry Goldwater's imaginations -- seems to enjoy claiming Smith as one of their own, the man would be appalled by the neoliberal economic policies of the past eight years (based on hegemony and globalization). In "Wealth Of Nations", Smith argues: “As soon as the land of any country has all become private property, the landlords, like all other men, love to reap where they never sowed, and demand a rent even for its natural produce. The wood of the forest, the grass of the field, and all the natural fruits of the earth, (which) when land was in common, cost the labourer only the trouble of gathering them, come, even to him, with an additional price fixed on them."

Talk to you guys soon.

[novillero]

Valetudo...

You posted, changed your landlord quote and disappeared. Where did you go? Did they get to you too?

Novillero

[admin]

"America was indebted to immigration for her settlement and prosperity." ~ President James Madison

I didn't notice that VT changed his profile. I bet the American Indians would disagree. ;D

Too bad VT didn't stay, he looked like a promising and good participant.

[novillero]

Brian, google the quote under my avatar.

[admin]

Mar 25, 2009 16:39:59 GMT -5 novillero said:

Brian, google the quote under my avatar.

To accept a favour is to sell freedom.

[valetudo71]

Mar 24, 2009 13:08:59 GMT -5 novillero said:

Valetudo...

You posted, changed your landlord quote and disappeared. Where did you go? Did they get to you too?

Novillero

I simply have not had the time to visit the board as I would like to. There's nothing profound about the quote change, I simply like to add a new one from time to time. Further, based on my own perceptions and conditions at the Rug Mill, I agree with Smith. I'm not a rigid or dogmatic person so perhaps I will adjust my opinion accordingly once I move out of this cesspool.

[valetudo71]

Mar 25, 2009 16:22:01 GMT -5 admin said:

I didn't notice that VT changed his profile. I bet the American Indians would disagree.

And rightly so, however, in spite of the mass genocide of First Nations Peoples (and not in any way, shape, or form to downplay this atrocity against humanity), Madison's quote remains more than relevant.

[admin]

Apr 7, 2009 0:23:25 GMT -5 valetudo71 said:

Mar 24, 2009 13:08:59 GMT -5 novillero said:

Valetudo...

You posted, changed your landlord quote and disappeared. Where did you go? Did they get to you too?

Novillero

I simply have not had the time to visit the board as I would like to. There's nothing profound about the quote change, I simply like to add a new one from time to time. Further, based on my own perceptions and conditions at the Rug Mill, I agree with Smith. I'm not a rigid or dogmatic person so perhaps I will adjust my opinion accordingly once I move out of this cesspool.

VT, good to hear from you. How is the apartment hunt going? I used to call the Rug Mill the Drug Mill. Lisa won't le me, though. She makes me be nice.

Adding the different quotes is a nice touch. Keep it up.

[bergsteiger]

Apr 7, 2009 6:08:19 GMT -5 admin said:

Apr 7, 2009 0:23:25 GMT -5 valetudo71 said:

I simply have not had the time to visit the board as I would like to. There's nothing profound about the quote change, I simply like to add a new one from time to time. Further, based on my own perceptions and conditions at the Rug Mill, I agree with Smith. I'm not a rigid or dogmatic person so perhaps I will adjust my opinion accordingly once I move out of this cesspool.

VT, good to hear from you. How is the apartment hunt going? I used to call the Rug Mill the Drug Mill. Lisa won't le me, though. She makes me be nice.

Adding the different quotes is a nice touch. Keep it up.

Brian, Don't listen to her.

"Women and children can afford to be careless, but not men."
Don Corleone

[novillero]

Apr 7, 2009 0:32:31 GMT -5 valetudo71 said:

Mar 25, 2009 16:22:01 GMT -5 admin said:

I didn't notice that VT changed his profile. I bet the American Indians would disagree.

And rightly so, however, in spite of the mass genocide of First Nations Peoples (and not in any way, shape, or form to downplay this atrocity against humanity), Madison's quote remains more than relevant.

I doubt it. The context of the quote in the overall speech and the historical context needs to be taken into account. Your quote also fails to take into consideration legal vs. illegal immigration - and on this board speaking in terms of immigration generally is usuall seen as supporting all immigration regardless of whether it is through the front or the back door.

Madison said your quote at the Constitutional Convention. The words that proceed your quote note that "He wished to maintain the character of liberality which had been professed in all the constitutions and publications of America. He wished to invite foreigners of merit and replublican principles among us."

Madison favored immigration, but "believed it necessary to guard against abuses. They should induce the worthy of mankind to come, the object being to increase the wealth and strength of the country. Those who would weaken it were not welcome."
source: Vindicating the Founders By Thomas G. West, link to book below.

also said by Madison
"Our kind reception of emigrants is very proper, but it is dictated more by benevolent than by interested consideration, tho some of them seem to be very far from regarding the obligations as lying on their side."
(Letter to Richard Peters, Feb. 22, 1819)

Other founding fathers had similar warnings, but did not favor immigration. There is the rare agreement of Jefferson and Hamilton on this issue:

JEFFERSON
"Yet from such [absolute monarchies], we are to expect the greatest number of emigrants. They will bring with them the principles of the governments they leave, imbibed in their early youth; or if able to throw them off, it will be in exchange for an unbounded licentiousness, passing as is usual, from one extreme to another. It would be a miracle were they to stop precisely at the point of temperate liberty. Their principles with their language, they will transmit to their children. In proportion to their numbers, they will share with us in the legislation. They will infuse into it their spirit, warp and bias its direction, and render it a heterogeneous, incoherent, distracted mass."
("Notes on Virginia," 1782)

HAMILTON
"The opinion advanced [by Jefferson, ] is undoubtedly correct, that foreigners will generally be apt to bring with them attachments to the persons they have left behind; to the country of their nativity, and to its particular customs and manners. They will also entertain opinions on government congenial with those under which they have lived; or, if they should be led hither from a preference to ours, how extremely unlikely is it that they will bring with them that temperate love of liberty, [italics in original] so essential to real republicanism? There may, as to particular individuals, and at particular times, be occasional exceptions to these remarks, yet such is the general rule. The influx of foreigners must, therefore, tend to produce a heterogeneous compound; to complicate and confound public opinion; to introduce foreign propensities. In the composition of society, the harmony of the ingredients is all-important, and whatever tends to a discordant intermixture must have an injurious tendency."
("Examinations of Jefferson's Message to Congress of December 7th, 1801," Jan. 12, 1802)

WASHINGTON
"My opinion, with respect to emigration, is that except of useful mechanics and some particular descriptions of men or professions, there is no need of encouragement, while the policy or advantage of its taking place in a body...may be much questioned; for, by so doing, they retain the Language, habits, and principles (good or bad) which they bring with them."
(Letter to John Adams, Nov. 15, 1794)

FRANKLIN
"The importation of foreigners into a country that has as many inhabitants as the present employments and provisions for subsistence will bear, will be in the end no increase of people, unless the new comers have more industry and frugality than the natives, and then they will provide more subsistence, and increase in the country; but they will gradually eat the natives out. Nor is it necessary to bring in foreigners to fill up any occasional vacancy in a country for such vacancy will soon be filled by natural generation."
("Observations Concerning the Increase of Mankind and the Peopling of Countries," 1751)

JOHN ADAMS
(Referring to applicants for public office - and the current FB council should take note here)
"Among the number of applications..., cannot we find an American capable and worthy of the trust? ...Why should we take the bread out of the mouths of our own children and give it to strangers?"
(Letter to Sec. State John Marshall, Aug. 14, 1800)

Vindicating the Founders By Thomas G. West. Read chapter 7 on Immigration and the Moral Conditions of Citizenship.

But you can also look at what some other leaders have said:

Frederick Douglass
"The old employments by which we have heretofore gained our livelihood, are gradually, and it may seem inevitably, passing into other hands. Every hour sees the black man elbowed out of employment by some newly arrived immigrant whose hunger and whose color are thought to give him a better title to the place."
(Speech Delivered before the A. A. S. Society, in New York, May, 1853)

Booker T. Washington
"To those of the white race who look to the incoming of those of foreign birth and strange tongue and habits, cast down your bucket where you are. Cast it down among the eight millions of Negroes ... who shall stand by you with a devotion no foreigner can approach, ready to lay down their lives, if need be in defense of yours, interlacing our industrial, commercial, civil, and religious life with yours in a way that shall make the interests on both races one."
(1895 Atlanta Compromise speech)

Samuel Gompers
founder and president of AFL
"America must not be overwhelmed. Every effort to enact immigration legislation must expect to meet a number of hostile forces and, in particular, two hostile forces of considerable strength. One of these is composed of corporation employers who desire to employ physical strength (broad backs) at the lowest possible wage and who prefer a rapidly revolving labor supply at low wages to a regular supply of American wage earners at fair wages. The other is composed of racial groups in the United States who oppose all restrictive legislation because they want the doors left open for an influx of their countrymen regardless of the menace to the people of their adopted country."
(Letter to Congress, March 19, 1924)

[admin]

Your quote also fails to take into consideration legal vs. illegal immigration - and on this board speaking in terms of immigration generally is usuall seen as supporting all immigration regardless of whether it is through the front or the back door.

We almost never talk about legal immigration on this site. I think few people have issue with legal immigrants. Most discussion is around the incredible amount of illegals who are here and the negative effects that this government failure had given us.

[valetudo71]

Apr 7, 2009 9:29:03 GMT -5 novillero said:

Apr 7, 2009 0:32:31 GMT -5 valetudo71 said:

I doubt it. The context of the quote in the overall speech and the historical context needs to be taken into account. Madison favored immigration, but believed it necessary to guard against abuses. They should induce the worthy of mankind to come, the object being to increase the wealth and strength of the country. Those who would weaken it were not welcome.

So if Madison was referring to those immigrants that increase the nation's wealth and strength... Where exactly is the debate? *shrugs* There is limited space provided for profile quotations, so obviously it would be impossible to quote Madison's entire speech given at the Constitutional Convention.

If you hadn't noticed there's a bit of irony on my part by quoting men like Smith and Madison. In the case of Smith, a moral philosopher and economist whom many so-called free market proponents (hardly "free" in any sense of the word) prattle about as their champion of capitalism, when in fact he would be appalled by the greed, speculation, and illegal profits that have been placed above human needs.

Apr 7, 2009 9:29:03 GMT -5 novillero said:

Your quote also fails to take into consideration legal vs. illegal immigration - and on this board speaking in terms of immigration generally is usuall seen as supporting all immigration regardless of whether it is through the front or the back door.

Well, if such a generalization is made, i.e., lumping all immigrants together unique attributes and circumstances, I would suggest people study the entire Madison speech you posted.

As for your quotes regarding Washington, Franklin, Jefferson, Hamilton, and Adams, there was a more pressing concern they had about immigration to the U.S., in addition to the ones you listed: The preservation and defense of America's white English heritage. By 1700, America's heritage was predominately seen and felt with 80 percent of the population being British, 11% African along with a combination of Dutch, Irish/Scottish and German (Immigration News Daily). Considering their opposition to immigration was predicated in large part on maintaining an Anglo Saxon nation, using them as a modern reference for who fits the criteria of a "worthy citizen" is a tad bit antiquated.

Apr 7, 2009 9:29:03 GMT -5 novillero said:

Apr 7, 2009 0:32:31 GMT -5 valetudo71 said:

But you can also look at what some other leaders have said:

Frederick Douglass
"The old employments by which we have heretofore gained our livelihood, are gradually, and it may seem inevitably, passing into other hands. Every hour sees the black man elbowed out of employment by some newly arrived immigrant whose hunger and whose color are thought to give him a better title to the place.

Douglass was absolutely correct. Although the Irish and "white ethnics" from Southern Europe were treated poorly by the dominant class, they were still given hiring preferences over blacks, who were deemed second class citizens and/or subhuman. In northern states, blacks and Irish were frequently forced to live in overlapping slum neighborhoods and compete for the same low-status jobs. Noel Ignatiev, American history professor at the Massachusetts College of Art observes:

"In northern states, blacks and Irish were frequently forced to live in overlapping slum neighborhoods and compete for the same low-status jobs. Over the years, though, Irish Americans managed to a great extent to enter and become part of the ruling culture, while African Americans remain on the bottom rung of the socioeconomic ladder. The history underlying these different paths is central to any understanding of American society and has received too little attention." (How the Irish Became White, 1995)

Apr 7, 2009 9:29:03 GMT -5 novillero said:

Booker T. Washington
"To those of the white race... Cast it down among the eight millions of Negroes ... who shall stand by you with a devotion no foreigner can approach, ready to lay down their lives, if need be in defense of yours.)

LOL! The "Great Accommodator" speaketh. I understand Booker, when you are outnumbered confrontation is not always wise.

Apr 7, 2009 9:29:03 GMT -5 novillero said:

[Samuel Gompers
founder and president of AFL
"America must not be overwhelmed. Every effort to enact immigration legislation must expect to meet a number of hostile forces and, in particular, two hostile forces of considerable strength. One of these is composed of corporation employers who desire to employ physical strength (broad backs) at the lowest possible wage and who prefer a rapidly revolving labor supply at low wages to a regular supply of American wage earners at fair wages. The other is composed of racial groups in the United States who oppose all restrictive legislation because they want the doors left open for an influx of their countrymen regardless of the menace to the people of their adopted country.

I'm a union guy but Gompers was a stone cold racist and xenophobe. Why are you using these quotes to support your argument(s)? Why not reference Lyndon LaRouche or someone from the John Birch Society? We live in different times, this way of thinking is outdated; over and done with. There's no turning back.

[valetudo71]

Apr 7, 2009 9:50:48 GMT -5 admin said:

I think few people have issue with legal immigrants.

You're referring to people on this board, right?

[admin]

Apr 8, 2009 4:52:41 GMT -5 valetudo71 said:

Apr 7, 2009 9:50:48 GMT -5 admin said:

I think few people have issue with legal immigrants.

You're referring to people on this board, right?

Yes! but I would apply that to the general population as well. I believe few people have a problem with legal immigration. On the occasions when people do take issue with it, I think it will be more directed at the broken system we have than immigration itself. Our legal system is a disaster, it is hostile to a little bit of everybody. That all goes back to what I say about illegal immigration, it is government failure.

[bergsteiger]

Apr 8, 2009 4:52:41 GMT -5 valetudo71 said:

Apr 7, 2009 9:50:48 GMT -5 admin said:

I think few people have issue with legal immigrants.

You're referring to people on this board, right?

Yes, I’m less then a fan of legal immigration, specifically with the numbers. Considering all the different government programs including refugees and guest workers this country opens it’s doors to well over a million, most likely over two million. I feel that is more then can be assimilated and afforded by the American people at this time not to mention the environmental impact; you know the “green issue” this country is facing.

If you don’t feel those numbers are too high, what number do you think are appropriate?

[novillero]

Valetudo,

I was pointing out that Madison's quote under your avator has a bit more meaning. Further, it does not jibe with today's immigration policy, and it certainly is not in agreement with the illegal alien activists' viewpoints.

As for the non-founding father's quotes that I inserted, I am of the viewpoint that illegal aliens take jobs away from americans - and they take jobs away from the most vulnerable Americans - those of lower socio-economic status.

Anyway, this discussion probably deserves to be under the thread of illegal immigration and not here.

So I will end it by saying that it is good to see you post again, and it is good for a new and different opinion to share on this board. Welcome aboard.

[valetudo71]

Apr 8, 2009 13:17:07 GMT -5 novillero said:

Valetudo,

I was pointing out that Madison's quote under your avator has a bit more meaning. Further, it does not jibe with today's immigration policy, and it certainly is not in agreement with the illegal alien activists' viewpoints.

As for the non-founding father's quotes that I inserted, I am of the viewpoint that illegal aliens take jobs away from americans - and they take jobs away from the most vulnerable Americans - those of lower socio-economic status.

Anyway, this discussion probably deserves to be under the thread of illegal immigration and not here.

So I will end it by saying that it is good to see you post again, and it is good for a new and different opinion to share on this board. Welcome aboard.

Thanks, brother... Always nice to debate and discuss these issues with sound minded people. What a difference from the rattle meisters over at Topix. Blessings!

[valetudo71]

Apr 7, 2009 6:08:19 GMT -5 admin said:

Apr 7, 2009 0:23:25 GMT -5 valetudo71 said:

VT, good to hear from you. How is the apartment hunt going? I used to call the Rug Mill the Drug Mill. Lisa won't le me, though. She makes me be nice. Adding the different quotes is a nice touch. Keep it up.

Thanks, my friend. Always good to see you at the meetings. Just so you know, true conservatives like you are what make the GOP remain relevant. I mean that sincerely, brother.

[valetudo71]

UPDATE: We just signed our lease at Monmouth Village. I cannot begin to tell you guys how impressed I am with rental management. As for the Rug Mill Towers... We're out like a fat kid playin' dodgeball. Seeee ya!

[novillero]

Apr 8, 2009 14:48:23 GMT -5 valetudo71 said:

UPDATE: We just signed our lease at Monmouth Village. I cannot begin to tell you guys how impressed I am with rental management. As for the Rug Mill Towers... We're out like a fat kid playin' dodgeball. Seeee ya!

haha. I'm going to use that line!

[valetudo71]

Apr 8, 2009 6:36:32 GMT -5 bergsteiger said:

If you don’t feel those numbers are too high, what number do you think are appropriate?

Thanks for contributing to this discussion. When I get the chance, I'd like to continue this debate in the immigration thread. It's a bit hectic right now, so I apologize for the belated replies. Thanks again, guys.

[valetudo71]

Apr 8, 2009 14:50:05 GMT -5 novillero said:

haha. I'm going to use that line!

"Ha!" (c) Chris Matthews ;D