Home Schooling

[admin]

More and more I hear about people who are doing this or considering. Here is a nice write up that apeared in the paper a few days ago.

www.app.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080208/NEWS/802080375#gslPageReturn

Homeschooling no longer carries stigma it once did
ACADEMIC SUCCESS: No chalkboard, lab or classroom needed

As the number of families across the country choosing to homeschool their children grows, some colleges and employers are increasingly recognizing the value and skills of these students, helping to shatter the stereotype that homeschooled children lack the social and academic skills needed to succeed in the real world.

"Even though we're 25 years into the modern home-education movement, there still is a stereotype, and actually that stereotype is a mental one," said Brian D. Ray, president of the Oregon-based National Home Education Research Institute, who has studied homeschooling for 23 years. "The stereotype is they're probably socially isolated. But almost nobody who meets homeschool kids will say that anymore."

Elizabeth Przywara and her two siblings, Rebecca, 12, and Matthew, 15, of Shrewsbury are living proof that academic success can come without sitting in front of a chalkboard in a classroom full of other students.

Elizabeth, who took the PSATs last year, was in the 99.9th percentile on the language-arts section. She has been studying piano for 12 years, and is considering applying to Berklee College of Music in Boston. Matthew, who travels to Freehold with his mother once a week to receive Latin instruction, recently won a national award for an essay he wrote. He will be studying Greek next.

Since kindergarten, Rebecca has played recreation soccer, basketball and softball and has participated in a travel softball league during the summer. She also is taking Latin.

All three follow a curriculum in the basic subject areas and go to the Red Bank YMCA on Friday mornings to attend a gym class organized by local parents of homeschooled children.

When asked if she was nervous about the possibility of going away to college, Elizabeth said: "I'm a social person, so I think it will be fine."

But critics of homeschooling say that the best way to ensure a quality education and ripen social skills is for children to be in a classroom with their peers.

"In the classroom, you have highly qualified teachers, you have interaction with other children, you have exposure to ideas and perspectives other than your own," said Steve Baker, a spokesman for New Jersey Education Association. "There are just overwhelming advantages of a public-school education."

Nonetheless, homeschooled students are succeeding after graduation, experts on the subject contend.

Monmouth University in West Long Branch, seeing an increase in the number of applicants who were homeschooled, responded about a year ago by establishing an admission policy for those students, said Lauren Vento Cifelli, director of undergraduate admissions.

The school created a course-evaluation worksheet that essentially serves as a formal transcript for homeschooled students, she said, so that admissions counselors know what subjects applicants have studied, and for how long.

"The homeschooled students that we have seen throughout the years have been very qualified for admission. They do seem to be well-rounded applicants," Cifelli said. "I wouldn't say that we look more favorably upon them, but I wouldn't say that they are at a disadvantage at all for being homeschooled. Generally speaking, we're able to look at them and admit them at the same rate that we are a student coming from a traditional background."

Two or three years ago, Brookdale Community College in Middletown clarified the admissions criteria for its Fast Start program, which allows high school students ages 15 and older to take college classes, and "made it clear that it was open to homeschoolers," said Carol Ann Hafner, a college spokeswoman.

Elizabeth may have to take a high school equivalency test such as the GED to get a formal diploma before she sends out college applications. It depends on the college whether a student must take the test, or just provide a record of what subjects they've studied, her mother, Ina Przywara, said.

Although there is no research on the subject, Ray said he's heard that homeschooled students also get the thumbs up from employers.

"What I've heard is that they really do like them because, generally speaking, young people who are raised in this environment are going to be self-starters, and already, on average, they are doing better academically," he said.

Marilyn Scherfen, director of the Atlantic Highlands Library, said she employed two local homeschooled students when they were teens and that their work ethic was notable.

"I don't know how much to attribute to the homeschooling, but they have such wonderful family values, and that is what shown through," she said.

Homeschooling is more common than some might think. Among its alumni are tennis stars Venus and Serena Williams; William Livingston, former governor of New Jersey; and luminary Thomas Edison.

Once considered an educational alternative for America's wealthiest and socially elite, homeschooling is now becoming more mainstream.

Ray estimates there are anywhere between 55,000 and 70,000 homeschooled students in New Jersey, a number that is on the rise. But the state puts the total at significantly less, most likely because in New Jersey, families are not required to notify local school boards if they decide to homeschool their children.

Ina Przywara, a Korean native who came to America at age 9, doesn't need statistics to tell her the benefits of homeschooling. At home, she not only knows what her children are learning, she knows what they're eating.

"In general, society today is just rushed. People find it hard to sit down to a meal together," Przywara, 47, said. "For us, we eat breakfast together, we eat lunch together, and we try our hardest to eat dinner together."

Their father, Dennis Przywara, 49, who is Polish-Irish, is an electrical engineering consultant who works at home. He teaches history at 8 a.m. Monday through Thursday, and Ina, who does not work, provides instruction in the rest of the subjects.

Ina Przywara is willing to admit that there are a few drawbacks to homeschooling. Her youngest daughter is "very athletic, so her ability to make the most of that is tough," because the local schools do not allow homeschooled students to participate in sports.

Another minor problem arose when Elizabeth took biology last year and had to dissect a frog.

"I did it on the dining room table, but I put a tray down," she said. "It was gross."

Alison Herget: [phone] or [e-mail]

[Libyan Sibyl]

weren't Jesus and Moses were homeschooled?

[Libyan Sibyl]

Good posts today Holly.

Segregated schools. I think the studies that deal with it are more focused on forced busing, are they not?

George Washington and Abe Lincoln were homeschooled according to many websites: www.eadshome.com/Famoushomeschooled.htm

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Lincoln

Compulsory public education begain in the 1820s and Germany and spread to America later that century.

Can you provide me some primary sources for your statement:

It is gods will that a society offers a public school systems, go read your bible. The principal of a public school education is referenced both new and old testaments.

[Libyan Sibyl]

Of course, there is also a biblical basis for homechooling:

www.wordofhisgrace.org/shouldyoubehomeschooling.htm

But don't think you'l child will come across a bible in public schools, and if they do, you should question which bible it is because it certainly will not be a Judeo-Christian bible.

[adefonzo]

Here's my problem with this article...and essentially everyone that "toots the horn" of homeschooling...they make it seem as if by going to public school, it's just about guaranteed that you'll come out "behind" somehow.

Why is there never any discussion about the students who thrive in a public school setting?

Also, the article did not really address the issue of the stigma that home-schooled children are less sociable...it merely mentioned the YMCA class on Saturdays with other home-schooled kids, and the fact that the one young woman considers herself to be sociable.

The article discusses how colleges have implemented programs that accept the academic aspect of what home-schooled children are learning, but if I recall, when I was applying to colleges, one of the big aspects was all of the other activities an applicant was involved in (student govt, community programs, athletics, etc). Have these things now gone by the wayside?

I would also have questions about the specifics of the lessons taught at home...though since I do not know where parents get the lessons from, I wouldn't want to speculate on their validity.

To be honest, I think as our society becomes more and more "tech savvy", all of us are becoming less and less sociable, and it's especially true in the younger generation. Sometimes I think my younger sister spends more time texting and IM-ing friends than actually talking to them face to face. A whole new language has been created so that it's easier and faster to text and IM (lol, bff, rotflol, tsnf, wtf...). In the workplace, people would rather send an email than call someone on the phone to discuss a problem or a question. This is, unfortunately, a blemish on society as a whole, and not having the advantage of being in a public school setting as a child will add to this void later in life (in my opinion). I do appreciate the idea that public school (though I hate to use this word) forces kids to interact with other kids who are different from themselves...come from different backgrounds, different belief structures, different economic situations...how to interact with people and accept others for who they are can not be simply taught in a home school lesson.

I have nothing really against homeschooling (believe it or not after that rant)...though I would never do it with my children (provided I somehow find a woman to marry me and have children with me that is.. ), and here's why...I don't have near the experience in all the subjects that I would want my child learning. In other words, how the heck am I going to teach my son or daughter about Biology?? I did miserably in biology. And even those areas that I feel I could do a decent job in, I am certainly not at the same competency level as a certified teacher!!

So...do what you'd like with you and yours...but for me and mine, it will be the public schools.

[Libyan Sibyl]

Why no articles about successful public school kids? Well, public school is the norm, so there is no story there. Successful public school kids are everyday. Homeschool is taboo and most people frown upon it, thinking it unnatural when really it's been going on for millenia.

As to homeschooling how-to, there are many different methods of homeschooling, and with many different methods there are courses that can be purchased or followed. Homeschoolers can also get regular textbooks if they wanted.
www.geocities.com/jerseyhome/

As to biology, of course, when you get more advanced, the parent needs to either keep up with the pace or get out of the way, that is find some one who'll help or pay up for a tutor to assist. Many homeschoolers will band together under a parent who may have some specialized knowledge in an area.

Plus aside from finding a paid or free tutor and books on any subject, there are computer programs. I think many homeschooling parents send their kids to high school because of the difficulty of re-educating themselves well enough to teach a technical subject and for the mere fact that they are afraid of reducing college admission chances (though that is now starting to disappear as more colleges accept homeschoolers).

In the first years, there is no technical knowledge that is beyond the parent - they are way ahead of their child. While not to diminish the public school grammar school teachers, many parents can provide that education themselves. It may even be easier for a parent than a trained professional - the parent is dealing one on one with their own child, the teacher has to teach many many kids at the same time, kids who are not their own and who probably have a range of intelligence and abilities. Plus public school teachers have a certain something special thing inside them that allows them to put up with other people's children...

you forget that parents are already teachers by nature. Before a child goes to school, most parents have taught their children to talk, the ABCs, simple counting, manners (hopefully), how to perform various functions throughout the house, and yes even how to socialize. Most parents read to their children, sing songs with them, play with them, color with them. The games have taught children rules and problem solving, but perhaps even reinforced counting or some very simple math.

Before a formal education, church-going parents will have started religious education. During the holidays, etc, parents will have explained some basics in social studies. They may have also enrolled their kids in activities outside of school taking care of some socialization and health and fitness.

The above is not too different from what goes on in pre-k and kindergarten.

So before, a kid even gets to school, there is a foundation o fknowledge and experience - and the parent is responsible for taht. Kids are taught by their parents everyday.

The next step for a homeschooler who has a kindergartener or 1st grader is to continue with language skills, reading and math; they'll teach them phonics and simple addition and subtraction. A homeschooling parent will pick up a simple book on instructing on reading and start the process - there is a lot of help out there, just type in phonics on Amazon.com. Just as there are different methods of teaching in general, there a different methof teaching subjects like reading and math (like using manipulatives and visualizing math instead of rote learning). An even harder part for the homeschooling parent is deciding which method to go by.

There is alomst too many things out there for a homeschooling parent - but they can be obtained through bookstores, free public library and online resources (pay and free). There is also the local Y, county parks programs, museums and local homeschool groups. (*not television)

The most daunting tasks for a homeschooling parent is (1) overcoming fears that they can't do it; and then once they begin, (2) finding time for his/her own sanity.

[admin]

When I first posted this home school article, I did not intend for it to become home schools, vs. public schooling. The intent was simply to provide a nice read, not an attack on pubic education.

With that said and the thread going the way it is, I will chime in. If I had kids public school would be a last resort after private and home schooling. Public education has it's value, but I consider it far inferior to the two other alternatives. I know that many kids do very well in public school, but the system is a mess either way and the facts remain that all public education has flaws that are not found elsewhere.

One of the biggest trends that drive me nuts is the pre K classes. Taking kids that young and putting them in schools is nonsense. This is nothing more than tax payer funded day care. Not long ago I read a really good article stating that any perceived gains from pre k are almost completely erase by third or fourth grade. I think what I am getting at is that it worries me how much people put blind faith in public education. It really is nothing more than day care for those who either can't or won't raise their own children.

Why not just take kids from their parents when their born and immediately put them in state run care/schools? It seams like we are headed that way.

At the end of the day, a child's education hinges around their parents. If a kid does not have this to begin with, the odds are stacked against him/her big time, even if we are to keep dumping more and more money into public education.

It is ironic that Moses and Jesus came up as topics. Two of the most influential people to have ever lived. With the way public education is today, there would never have been a Moses or Jesus if they were subjected to the secular schools we have now.


Public education has it's value, there is no question in my mind about that. We do need a good system that is cost efficient and provides quality care for the kids. Not every one has the luxury of staying home with their most precious accomplishments or sending them to private school. For that reason, public schools are a valuable safety net that we can afford to allow failure in.

[fiberisgoodforyou]

Andrew...It is my understanding that "Home Schooled Children" have to register with either the Local, county or State Dept of education, and follow the CORE curriculum. If you want to teach your kids Adam and Eve where beamed to earth from planet Bumdunk thats a little bizzar for most normal people, but if thats your firm SERIOUS belief that has to be fine too I guess as along as the kids are also taught about dinosaurs, that the earth rotates around the sun (and not the other way around), they know what a Noun and Adverb is, can bisect and measure an isosolies triangle, read a news paper, know who is Moses, Jesus, Mohamed, Budha Henry Hudson, Adolf Hitler, Ghandi and JFK...etc

ANYWAY...., the Local or county Super.'s office will (or should) monitor the child's progress, as well as supply basic materials to support the core curriculum's, IE reading, math, science, SS etc...

If these children are not registered as home schooled, they would (or should) be considered truants..and the parents may be subject to some form of civil action.

As far as physical and social activities many home schooled kids go to Little league, soccer, take karate or t'aegwondo, belong to Cub scouts, ect...Home schooled does not mean shut-in.

Some parents feel that they want to manage the elementary education of their children, stay home and be with their kids to share this once in a life time period of growing up, and most do a fine job. In some communities, there are groups of "Home schooled" children that regularly meet for play dates.

I'd prefer to have my kids in Public schools (thought there are time...), some people feel that a catholic school education is better, Some people place their children into a Muslim School (remember were we received algebra from, and OMAR KHAYYAM), some people think a "Prep" school is better, some people send there kids to Military school... Hey, different strokes right?

Bottom line again is....they are tough the basics (reading writing and Math) correctly.

[fiberisgoodforyou]

admin said:

When I first posted this home school article, I did not intend for it to become home schools, vs. public schooling. The intent was simply to provide a nice read, not an attack on pubic education.

Yes you did... ;D

[fiberisgoodforyou]

admin said:

One of the biggest trends that drive me nuts is the pre K classes. Taking kids that young and putting them in schools is nonsense. This is nothing more than tax payer funded day care. Not long ago I read a really good article stating that any perceived gains from pre k are almost completely erase by third or fourth grade. I think what I am getting at is that it worries me how much people put blind faith in public education. It really is nothing more than day care for those who either can't or won't raise their own children.

Why not take these kids and put them to work rather than send them to pre-k. The sooner children learn to that they have top pay their own way, and to contribute to society the quicker there will be more tax revenue generated to pay off state county and municipal worker pensions.

This is why kids are lazy, they just sit in schools learning stuff, while there parents are out in the workforce instead of staying home teaching the kids. And if we all stayed home, who would care if gas was $3.00 per gallon.

ON a serious note, the districts that seem to be failing, are the districts where parents for WHATEVER reason, are not engaged with their children education!

There is a direct correlation the, children who do well in any school, have parents and guardians that are engaged in their education.

SO I respectfully disagree, the facts prove its a combination of BAD administrators and school boards, like the majority of Abbott districts have proven ...and disengaged parents that fail a school systems not the teachers, and not the taxpayers.

If you give every person the constitutional the right to vote then you ARE OBLIGATED to educate that person properly. This is a part of living in and the price for a democracy, and sometimes seeing the "Product" makes it tough to understand what the heck are the politicians doing with our money.

THERE is a correlation as well, between a true, fair democratic society and a right to a good public education....IMHO

We also have the right to DEMAND that the products we pay for, in this case the first class QUALITY public school education, with OUR money is not pissed away on BS (Abbott districts for example)!

[admin]

fiberisgoodforyou said:

Andrew...It is my understanding that "Home Schooled Children" have to register with either the Local, county or State Dept of education, and follow the CORE curriculum. If you want to teach your kids Adam and Eve where beamed to earth from planet Bumdunk thats a little bizzar for most normal people, but if thats your firm SERIOUS belief that has to be fine too I guess as along as the kids are also taught about dinosaurs, that the earth rotates around the sun (and not the other way around), they know what a Noun and Adverb is, can bisect and measure an isosolies triangle, read a news paper, know who is Moses, Jesus, Mohamed, Budha Henry Hudson, Adolf Hitler, Ghandi and JFK...etc

ANYWAY...., the Local or county Super.'s office will (or should) monitor the child's progress, as well as supply basic materials to support the core curriculum's, IE reading, math, science, SS etc...

If these children are not registered as home schooled, they would (or should) be considered truants..and the parents may be subject to some form of civil action.

As far as physical and social activities many home schooled kids go to Little league, soccer, take karate or t'aegwondo, belong to Cub scouts, ect...Home schooled does not mean shut-in.

Some parents feel that they want to manage the elementary education of their children, stay home and be with their kids to share this once in a life time period of growing up, and most do a fine job. In some communities, there are groups of "Home schooled" children that regularly meet for play dates.

I'd prefer to have my kids in Public schools (thought there are time...), some people feel that a catholic school education is better, Some people place their children into a Muslim School (remember were we received algebra from, and OMAR KHAYYAM), some people think a "Prep" school is better, some people send there kids to Military school... Hey, different strokes right?

Bottom line again is....they are tough the basics (reading writing and Math) correctly.

Wow! good post. You are very insightful. Being that you know what is good for everyone else, maybe we can make you Fiber the education tzar for life! All that big government that you want to rely on will provide the best that everyone else's money can buy!

[admin]

fiberisgoodforyou said:

admin said:

One of the biggest trends that drive me nuts is the pre K classes. Taking kids that young and putting them in schools is nonsense. This is nothing more than tax payer funded day care. Not long ago I read a really good article stating that any perceived gains from pre k are almost completely erase by third or fourth grade. I think what I am getting at is that it worries me how much people put blind faith in public education. It really is nothing more than day care for those who either can't or won't raise their own children.

Why not take these kids and put them to work rather than send them to pre-k. The sooner children learn to that they have top pay their own way, and to contribute to society the quicker there will be more tax revenue generated to pay off state county and municipal worker pensions.

This is why kids are lazy, they just sit in schools learning stuff, while there parents are out in the workforce instead of staying home teaching the kids. And if we all stayed home, who would care if gas was $3.00 per gallon.

ON a serious note, the districts that seem to be failing, are the districts where parents for WHATEVER reason, are not engaged with their children education!

There is a direct correlation the, children who do well in any school, have parents and guardians that are engaged in their education.

.

If you give every person a constitutional the right to vote, then you ARE OBLIGATED to educate that person properly. This is a part of living ni and paying for a democracy, and seeing the "Product" sometimes makes it tough to understand.

THERE is a correlation as well, between a true, fair democratic society and a right to a good public education....IMHO

SO I respectfully disagree, the facts prove its a combination of BAD administrators and school boards, like the majority of Abbott districts have proven ...and disengaged parents that fail a school systems not the teachers, and not the taxpayers

Fiber, I said that! But I have a great idea. When you become education tzar, why don't you just keep jacking up our taxes and throw more money at the issues so that the problems will magically go away!

And the kids will learn a lot more if they go to work then they will going to pre k!


We also have the right to DEMAND that the products we buy, in this case, IS the first class QUALITY public school education, and that OUR money is not pissed away on BS (Abbott districts)!

I agree and you have the system we have all asked for. Enjoy!


This is a part of living ni and paying for a democracy, and seeing the "Product" sometimes makes it tough to understand.

The schools are any but a democracy. What happens when we vote down a budget? It passes anyway. Did you ever see all of the mandates that schools have to deal with, taking choice away from people? What if a community is all one religion, can they inject that religion into their schools? No here come the ACLU. Ask the school BOE how much they can really influence things. What if the community wants to jack taxes up a lot? they can not with the present caps, can they?

In other words Fiber, the schools are no democracy. They are a bureaucracy.

And you will not find any of those hindrances in a home schooling situation!

[Libyan Sibyl]

fiberisgoodforyou said:

There is a direct correlation the, children who do well in any school, have parents and guardians that are engaged in their education.

That is the case with most homeschoolers. Obviously, their parents have taken a very pro-active role in their child's education.

p.s. repeal child labor laws: www.mises.org/story/2858

[admin]

libyansybil said:

fiberisgoodforyou said:

There is a direct correlation the, children who do well in any school, have parents and guardians that are engaged in their education.

That is the case with most homeschoolers. Obviously, their parents have taken a very pro-active role in their child's education.

p.s. repeal child labor laws: www.mises.org/story/2858

Yes! The best teachers a child can have- parents! And we do not have to pay those massive pensions and benefit costs that Fiber mentioned.

[fiberisgoodforyou]

admin said:

SO I respectfully disagree, the facts prove its a combination of BAD administrators and school boards, like the majority of Abbott districts have proven ...and disengaged parents that fail a school systems not the teachers, and not the taxpayers

Fiber, I said that! But I have a great idea. When you become education tzar, why don't you just keep jacking up our taxes and throw more money at the issues so that the problems will magically go away!

And the kids will learn a lot more if they go to work then they will going to pre-k

We also have the right to DEMAND that the products we buy, in this case, IS the first class QUALITY public school education, and that OUR money is not pissed away on BS (Abbott districts)!

I agree and you have the system we have all asked for. Enjoy!

This is a part of living ni and paying for a democracy, and seeing the "Product" sometimes makes it tough to understand.

The schools are any but a democracy. What happens when we vote down a budget? It passes anyway. Did you ever see all of the mandates that schools have to deal with, taking choice away from people? What if a community is all one religion, can they inject that religion into their schools? No here come the ACLU. Ask the school BOE how much they can really influence things. What if the community wants to jack taxes up a lot? they can not with the present caps, can they?

In other words Fiber, the schools are no democracy. They are a bureaucracy.

And you will not find any of those hindrances in a home schooling situation!

You have been confused between the cost the bureaucracy and the service that Public Schools provide. I'll be bunt, if you lived in a community were the k-8 schools were in the top10, or 20 in the state, you would be whistling a way different tune. If those conditions existed, your only complaint would be that the cost the bureaucracy has imposed. Your home value would be sustained, and new families would be flocking to buy your home closer to the you're asking price!

Why do we need a State, County and Municipally park system? I am sure there are tons of Tree Huggers and Deer Hunters who can do the same work through volunteering, and then there is no need to payout excessive pensioned we can no longer afford, after all why should it cost so much to run a park system. Why do I need to pay for the lawns mowed in a State Park in Sussex county that I never use? Besides, I'd rather pay to see a quality open space like Space Farms, or be amused at sixflags. And why am I paying to subsidies for Municipal golf courses? I don't golf and most people I know do not golf either, and how about the sports complex that I don't use?

Brian, do you use the spray-grounds at Doorbrook? Oh, we forget one reason people move to Monmouth county is because there is a GREAT parks systems, top 10 in the Nation, and I am sure the employees are part of the reason we have a fine parks system! But is it a necessity or a luxury? Our our taxs also go to the management of the Manisquan reservoir, and where is my drinking water coming from? Lots of bureaucracy's just like schools.

Brian, there is no need for 600 plus school districts with all the overlap. And this State department of Education nows there is no economy with all the Educational overlay, same with Municipal and County Government. Why cant the County Sheriff s office oversee the Municipal PB?

There are two separate issues.. First is, having a quality public school system, the second issue is economics.

The economics of overlay is whats killing NJ taxpayers, not the school systems. Were is there economy, when you have 600 separate QTY 2000 textbook contracts, or One bid for 1,200,000 text books. This three layer bureaucratic inefficiently is were we all must be focused.

I'll make this simple..OVERSIGHT and ACCOUNTABILITY, there is none!

Better yet, lets have the Pre K in the parks and let the kids mow the grass for PE too!

[fiberisgoodforyou]

admin said:

libyansybil said:

That is the case with most homeschoolers. Obviously, their parents have taken a very pro-active role in their child's education.

p.s. repeal child labor laws: www.mises.org/story/2858

Yes! The best teachers a child can have- parents! And we do not have to pay those massive pensions and benefit costs that Fiber mentioned.

MIT is a crappy institution anyway.... This may be why the Kumar Rouge started killing off the the intellectuals, NO Pre -K

From....
web.mit.edu/workplacecenter/docs/Full%20Report.pdf

Taken together, Early Childhood Education for All brings together the work of leading economists to provide clear data on the importance of addressing this issue to the economic growth and productivity of our country. It breathes new life into our efforts, and I recommend this report to all those looking to improve the lives of our children and make sure that the country is prepared for a vital
economic future.

In a time of scarce public resources, the care and education of young children will continue to fall to the bottom of the priority list until there is a shift in public understanding about the economics of raising the next generation. High-quality early childhood education is too vital to be brushed aside as a social services expenditure for only a few families or as too expensive to consider in tight budgetary times. Early education is important for all children. And study after study shows that it is not too expensive.

Quite the contrary. Investments in quality child care and early childhood education do more than pay significant returns to children—our future citizens. They also benefit taxpayers and enhance economic vitality. Economic research—by Nobel Prize-winners and Federal Reserve economists, in economic studies in dozens of states and counties, and in longitudinal studies spanning 40 years—demonstrate that the return on public investment in high quality childhood education is substantial.

On December 9 and 10, 2004, Legal Momentum and the MIT Workplace Center at the Sloan School of Management sponsored a conference, “The Economic Impacts of Child Care and Early Education: Financing Solutions for the Future,” that led to this report. It brought together some 80 scholars, experts and activists from around the country to examine the economics of early childhood education and to determine how to effectively present this new investment understanding to policymakers and voters. The partners in this effort were Legal Momentum’s Family Initiative and
the MIT Workplace Center; co-sponsors were The National Economic Development and Law Center, The Early Care and Education Collaborative and The Center for Policy Alternatives.

Until now, a considerable “blind spot” has blocked the public from seeing the field of early childhood education in economic terms or thinking about creative ways to finance, strengthen and enhance its growth. While virtually every state has maintained economic development funding at high levels in order to aid job growth, state after state has made cutbacks in child care, preschool and after school programs.

I. INTRODUCTION 1
II. THE ECONOMIC BENEFITS OF QUALITY EARLY CHILDHOOD EDUCATION 4
III. FINANCING FOR A WIN-WIN PUBLIC INVESTMENT THAT YIELDS HIGH PUBLIC RETURNS 21
IV. MAKING THE CASE FOR PUBLIC INVESTMENT IN EARLY CARE AND EDUCATION 32
V. NEXT STEPS: CONCLUSIONS AND RECOMMENDATIONS 41
NOTES 45
APPENDIX I Child Care Economic Impact Studies 51
APPENDIX II Draft Bill for State Action 56
APPENDIX III Conference Attendees 59
APPENDIX IV Family Initiative National Advisory Commission 61

[Libyan Sibyl]

fiberisgoodforyou said:

MIT is a crappy institution anyway.... This may be why the Kumar Rouge started killing off the the intellectuals, NO Pre -K

Kumar Rouge, isn't he that guy from Freehold in the White Castle movie?

which reminds me of a song
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Od-nJoE_hzE

Half past 9
quarter to 10
10:15 and we're comin' around again

hold off are we going soft?
flushed my Zoloft and we're comin' around again

found out and I almost drowned
walked back down and we're comin' around again

If I could talk I'd tell you
If I could smile I'd let you know
If I could talk I'd tell you
You are far and away
My most imaginary friend

Khmer Rouge genocide qua
your place or Mein Kamph now I'm givin the dog a bone
slight hunch without the vaugest clue
to keep the blood balanced now we're comin around again

1/2 past 9
quarter to 2
10:15 now we're comin' around again

If I could talk I'd tell you
If I could smile I'd let you know
If I could talk I'd tell you
If I could talk I'd tell you
If I could smile I'd let you know
you are far and away
my most imaginary friend

[fiberisgoodforyou]

libyansybil said:

fiberisgoodforyou said:

There is a direct correlation the, children who do well in any school, have parents and guardians that are engaged in their education.

That is the case with most homeschoolers. Obviously, their parents have taken a very pro-active role in their child's education.

p.s. repeal child labor laws: www.mises.org/story/2858

Even simpler...You have 4 or 5 year old, and want to be a great parent interested in providing your child with the best head start possible....you would NOT take advantage of havening the services of a Masters Degreed or PH'd early childhood education specialist/professional available for your child?

there is another point that you are making.... 9-3 pm every day may be too much, and can turn this opportunity into a free BABY Sitting service for some people.

But the same can said for these same parents for when their children go to 1st, 2nd, 3rd ect.... This comes down to family values

Personally, I would (IN FACT HAVE) use the Pre - k, because i know our systems education professional and they are NOT the baby sitter types.

They will challenge your child's mind, and MOST IMPORTANTLY WILL be able to help the parent identify learning problems and disabilities EARLY. Issues like fine motor skills and cognizant learning, that once intervened earlier than later will allow all children to be better learners EARLIER thus all around better students in the early elementary school years.

But to be honest, a full day, every day may be a bit much for most kids. I enjoyed having my 4 year olds around for 1/2 the day.

[fiberisgoodforyou]

libyansybil said:

fiberisgoodforyou said:

MIT is a crappy institution anyway.... This may be why the Kumar Rouge started killing off the the intellectuals, NO Pre -K

Kumar Rouge, isn't he that guy from Freehold in the White Castle movie?

which reminds me of a song
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Od-nJoE_hzE

No that was a great movie, not as good as Jay and Silent Bob, but while I am on the topic, Jay is what can happen TO YOUR kids WITH OUT PRE-K ;D

Back to the Kumar comment, have you looked at Kumar's economy lately?..They send their kids to Pre-K, and com to America to get their PH D's too (In English)!

[admin]

fiberisgoodforyou said:

admin said:

SO I respectfully disagree, the facts prove its a combination of BAD administrators and school boards, like the majority of Abbott districts have proven ...and disengaged parents that fail a school systems not the teachers, and not the taxpayers

Fiber, I said that! But I have a great idea. When you become education tzar, why don't you just keep jacking up our taxes and throw more money at the issues so that the problems will magically go away!

And the kids will learn a lot more if they go to work then they will going to pre-k

We also have the right to DEMAND that the products we buy, in this case, IS the first class QUALITY public school education, and that OUR money is not pissed away on BS (Abbott districts)!

I agree and you have the system we have all asked for. Enjoy!

This is a part of living ni and paying for a democracy, and seeing the "Product" sometimes makes it tough to understand.

The schools are any but a democracy. What happens when we vote down a budget? It passes anyway. Did you ever see all of the mandates that schools have to deal with, taking choice away from people? What if a community is all one religion, can they inject that religion into their schools? No here come the ACLU. Ask the school BOE how much they can really influence things. What if the community wants to jack taxes up a lot? they can not with the present caps, can they?

In other words Fiber, the schools are no democracy. They are a bureaucracy.

And you will not find any of those hindrances in a home schooling situation!

You have been confused between the cost the bureaucracy and the service that Public Schools provide. I'll be bunt, if you lived in a community were the k-8 schools were in the top10, or 20 in the state, you would be whistling a way different tune. If those conditions existed, your only complaint would be that the cost the bureaucracy has imposed. Your home value would be sustained, and new families would be flocking to buy your home closer to the you're asking price!

Why do we need a State, County and Municipally park system? I am sure there are tons of Tree Huggers and Deer Hunters who can do the same work through volunteering, and then there is no need to payout excessive pensioned we can no longer afford, after all why should it cost so much to run a park system. Why do I need to pay for the lawns mowed in a State Park in Sussex county that I never use? Besides, I'd rather pay to see a quality open space like Space Farms, or be amused at sixflags. And why am I paying to subsidies for Municipal golf courses? I don't golf and most people I know do not golf either, and how about the sports complex that I don't use?

Brian, do you use the spray-grounds at Doorbrook? Oh, we forget one reason people move to Monmouth county is because there is a GREAT parks systems, top 10 in the Nation, and I am sure the employees are part of the reason we have a fine parks system! But is it a necessity or a luxury? Our our taxes also go to the management of the Manisquan reservoir, and where is my drinking water coming from? Lots of bureaucracy's just like schools.

Brian, there is no need for 600 plus school districts with all the overlap. And this State department of Education nows there is no economy with all the Educational overlay, same with Municipal and County Government. Why cant the County Sheriff s office oversee the Municipal PB?

There are two separate issues.. First is, having a quality public school system, the second issue is economics.

The economics of overlay is whats killing NJ taxpayers, not the school systems. Were is there economy, when you have 600 separate QTY 2000 textbook contracts, or One bid for 1,200,000 text books. This three layer bureaucratic inefficiently is were we all must be focused.

I'll make this simple..OVERSIGHT and ACCOUNTABILITY, there is none!

Better yet, lets have the Pre K in the parks and let the kids mow the grass for PE too!

You have been confused between the cost the bureaucracy and the service that Public Schools provide. I'll be bunt, if you lived in a community were the k-8 schools were in the top10, or 20 in the state, you would be whistling a way different tune. If those conditions existed, your only complaint would be that the cost the bureaucracy has imposed. Your home value would be sustained, and new families would be flocking to buy your home closer to the you're asking price!

I disagree. The bureaucracy and the service are linked. That will not change in anything pertaining to government. That is the nature of the beast. The rest of your paragraph writes as if I was knocking the boro schools. I was not in any place in this thread. This thread was about home schooling and the merits of it. I did not bring up public education, Holly, you and Andrew did. Go back and look and you will see that I clearly support the need for public education. I simply think it is inferior to other ways of educating kids. Do you see a know in our schools in that statement? You should not. I know that your kids are doing very well as are many others in the public schools.


Why do we need a State, County and Municipally park system? I am sure there are tons of Tree Huggers and Deer Hunters who can do the same work through volunteering, and then there is no need to payout excessive pensioned we can no longer afford, after all why should it cost so much to run a park system. Why do I need to pay for the lawns mowed in a State Park in Sussex county that I never use? Besides, I'd rather pay to see a quality open space like Space Farms, or be amused at sixflags. And why am I paying to subsidies for Municipal golf courses? I don't golf and most people I know do not golf either, and how about the sports complex that I don't use?

Brian, do you use the spray-grounds at Doorbrook? Oh, we forget one reason people move to Monmouth county is because there is a GREAT parks systems, top 10 in the Nation, and I am sure the employees are part of the reason we have a fine parks system! But is it a necessity or a luxury? Our our taxs also go to the management of the Manisquan reservoir, and where is my drinking water coming from? Lots of bureaucracy's just like schools.


I understand your points here and as far as I am concerned these questions should be asked about ALL government agencies from top to bottom. I agree with you especially about the golf course issue.

Beyond that the parks vs. schools are poor issues to compare. People are leaving this state because of the high cost of property taxes a number one issue. The schools are the biggest chunk of that as opposed to parks which are a very small part of your county tax.

Of course, the schools are arguable far more important to a community than parks are. I would not even attempt to argue otherwise.

That said, do not under estimate the very real need for recreation. AS you mentioned it is something that attracts people to an area. Just ask inner city people who have limited recreation how they feel about the subject.

Getting back to the Democracy issue, when there is an open space referendum on the ballot, if it is defeated it will not pass despite the wishes of the voters, unlike schools. Strangely enough, open space votes are always in favor. Schools get shot down all the time and the will of the voters is usually discarded.


Brian, there is no need for 600 plus school districts with all the overlap. And this State department of Education nows there is no economy with all the Educational overlay, same with Municipal and County Government. Why cant the County Sheriff s office oversee the Municipal PB?

There are two separate issues.. First is, having a quality public school system, the second issue is economics.

The economics of overlay is whats killing NJ taxpayers, not the school systems. Were is there economy, when you have 600 separate QTY 2000 textbook contracts, or One bid for 1,200,000 text books. This three layer bureaucratic inefficiently is were we all must be focused.

I'll make this simple..OVERSIGHT and ACCOUNTABILITY, there is none!

You are right about the 600 districts and this a theme that carries over to police departments as well. Why not merge our police and schools with the township? I have shown support for both of these ideas.

You are wrong about the economics and schools system being separate. They are one in the same due to the mandates and costs that are found in public education as opposed to private schools which often do a better job for far less. Until schools are deregulated, teachers unions are challenged, and the bureaucracy is lessened, the system will continue to be very expensive.

[admin]

fiberisgoodforyou said:

libyansybil said:

That is the case with most homeschoolers. Obviously, their parents have taken a very pro-active role in their child's education.

p.s. repeal child labor laws: www.mises.org/story/2858

Even simpler...You have 4 or 5 year old, and want to be a great parent interested in providing your child with the best head start possible....you would NOT take advantage of havening the services of a Masters Degreed or PH'd early childhood education specialist/professional available for your child?

there is another point that you are making.... 9-3 pm every day may be too much, and can turn this opportunity into a free BABY Sitting service for some people.

But the same can said for these same parents for when their children go to 1st, 2nd, 3rd ect.... This comes down to family values

Personally, I would (IN FACT HAVE) use the Pre - k, because i know our systems education professional and they are NOT the baby sitter types.

They will challenge your child's mind, and MOST IMPORTANTLY WILL be able to help the parent identify learning problems and disabilities EARLY. Issues like fine motor skills and cognizant learning, that once intervened earlier than later will allow all children to be better learners EARLIER thus all around better students in the early elementary school years.

But to be honest, a full day, every day may be a bit much for most kids. I enjoyed having my 4 year olds around for 1/2 the day.

Now you got me. home schooling is bad. Mom and Dad are too stupid unless they have one of those fancy degrees. Mom and Dad could never in a million years challenge a child's mind let alone figure out that the child may have something wrong with them.

Besides, with day care pre k schooling, mom and dad can do something really important while the little ones are away like watch the "Price is Right."

[Libyan Sibyl]

fiberisgoodforyou said:

libyansybil said:

That is the case with most homeschoolers. Obviously, their parents have taken a very pro-active role in their child's education.

p.s. repeal child labor laws: www.mises.org/story/2858

Even simpler...You have 4 or 5 year old, and want to be a great parent interested in providing your child with the best head start possible....you would NOT take advantage of havening the services of a Masters Degreed or PH'd early childhood education specialist/professional available for your child?

there is another point that you are making.... 9-3 pm every day may be too much, and can turn this opportunity into a free BABY Sitting service for some people.

But the same can said for these same parents for when their children go to 1st, 2nd, 3rd ect.... This comes down to family values

Personally, I would (IN FACT HAVE) use the Pre - k, because i know our systems education professional and they are NOT the baby sitter types.

They will challenge your child's mind, and MOST IMPORTANTLY WILL be able to help the parent identify learning problems and disabilities EARLY. Issues like fine motor skills and cognizant learning, that once intervened earlier than later will allow all children to be better learners EARLIER thus all around better students in the early elementary school years.

But to be honest, a full day, every day may be a bit much for most kids. I enjoyed having my 4 year olds around for 1/2 the day.

Fiber, I think you are missing the point to an extent and are really blinded by the idea of government is better, and that a certificate necessarily makes a person a better teacher than a parent.

You are the type of person that the article was aimed at. I do not think that you will let yourself be convinced that a parent can educate their child equally, if not better, than a stranger with a degree. Please re-read the article.

[fiberisgoodforyou]

admin said:

fiberisgoodforyou said:

You are wrong about the economics and schools system being separate. They are one in the same due to the mandates and costs that are found in public education as opposed to private schools which often do a better job for far less. Until schools are deregulated, teachers unions are challenged, and the bureaucracy is lessened, the system will continue to be very expensive.

NO, sorry I am not wrong (not a very graceful answer).

Sure the pay scale in private schools are lower than the pay scales at the public schools, but again private school teachers in most instances are lower degreed and rarely tenured.

Not about the state deficit, ... 37 Billion in unfunded and/or underfunded pensions thats why we are hosed, thats why [people are leaving. A mandated for 100,000 "affordable" Housing Units and no break for the home owners, thats too is why people are bailing out of NJ. Schools are part of it, but if you look at the facts, people move to where the jobs are, and jobs go where companies find operating conditions to be profitable and where the education systems thrives!

Don't put the cart before the horse .

[admin]

fiberisgoodforyou said:

admin said:

fiberisgoodforyou said:

You are wrong about the economics and schools system being separate. They are one in the same due to the mandates and costs that are found in public education as opposed to private schools which often do a better job for far less. Until schools are deregulated, teachers unions are challenged, and the bureaucracy is lessened, the system will continue to be very expensive.

NO, sorry I am not wrong (not a very graceful answer).

Sure the pay scale in private schools are lower than the pay scales at the public schools, but again private school teachers in most instances are lower degreed and rarely tenured.

Not about the state deficit, ... 37 Billion in unfunded and/or underfunded pensions thats why we are hosed, thats why [people are leaving. A mandated for 100,000 "affordable" Housing Units and no break for the home owners, thats too is why people are bailing out of NJ. Schools are part of it, but if you look at the facts, people move to where the jobs are, and jobs go where companies find operating conditions to be profitable and where the education systems thrives!

Don't put the cart before the horse .

Well, seeing that you are impressed with degreed teachers, then you are getting what we are all paying dearly for. Good for you and the microfibers. At the higher levels of education I can see the value. Tenure is a practice that really needs to be looked at.

On the subject of pensions and housing units, you are preaching to the choir. You know that I do not support the pension system or government mandated housing. Both are destined for disaster. I think the projected underfunding for pensions is about 60 billion. Could be wrong.

Ten billion dollars a year in state aid to schools certainly is not a problem. You are right about the schools being hunky dorey.

Go back and read the last post by LS. It is a good read and he said it well.

[fiberisgoodforyou]

admin said:

. Now you got me. home schooling is bad. Mom and Dad are too stupid unless they have one of those fancy degrees. Mom and Dad could never in a million years challenge a Tell the single parent that they should stay home with Jr.?child's mind let alone figure out that the child may have something wrong with them.

Besides, with day care pre k schooling, mom and dad can do something really important while the little ones are away like watch the "Price is Right."

First, home schooling requires reporting on the part of the parents, to some department of Education . You have to provide some evidence that you NOT sitting the child in front of the TV watching "The Price is Right" while reading Mein Kampf 7x24.

I do know a few Home school parents and they do a fine job.

Lib..YOU convinced ME, a cough is a cough, and a fever is a fever, and that Lump on my kids neck, we'll that will go away...., no reason to take a child for a well baby visit either, Just because the doctor has the paper and medical education...

An highly degreed early childhood education professions can teach you "Stuff" about your child that may surprise you, and EARLY. You make it sound like a Pre-K education professional is like an 18 month chiropractor degree as compared to a PHd' neurologist.

The fact is, Pre-k is here and its been here.

Every parent I know has nothing but great experiences, there are a few that went onto St Rose for k-8, and thats fine with me,...more room for my kids in the public schools.

About the full day program...that I am not too keen on. If I had not been clear about this, I am now.

Thats a long day for a 3 or 4 year old. There is (or was) the "Head Start Program" for low income parents that MUST work in order to keep the roof over their heads, or maybe they should sit home a collect welfare rather than work or continue with college studies to better themselves...till the child goes into K-8.

Are you saying that low income people need to get out of Freehold? or are you saying that Pre-K will attract low income people to Freehold?

Again, you need to learn the facts, there will be a finite number of Pre K-seats, and a lottery for eligibility (as I understood it, but maybe SOMEONE can clarify)

[admin]

fiberisgoodforyou said:

admin said:

. Now you got me. home schooling is bad. Mom and Dad are too stupid unless they have one of those fancy degrees. Mom and Dad could never in a million years challenge a Tell the single parent that they should stay home with Jr.?child's mind let alone figure out that the child may have something wrong with them.

Besides, with day care pre k schooling, mom and dad can do something really important while the little ones are away like watch the "Price is Right."

First, home schooling requires reporting on the part of the parents, to some department of Education . You have to provide some evidence that you NOT sitting the child in front of the TV watching "The Price is Right" while reading Mein Kampf 7x24.

I do know a few Home school parents and they do a fine job.

Lib..YOU convinced ME, a cough is a cough, and a fever is a fever, and that Lump on my kids neck, we'll that will go away...., no reason to take a child for a well baby visit either, Just because the doctor has the paper and medical education...

An highly degreed early childhood education professions can teach you "Stuff" about your child that may surprise you, and EARLY. You make it sound like a Pre-K education professional is like an 18 month chiropractor degree as compared to a PHd' neurologist.

The fact is, Pre-k is here and its been here.

Every parent I know has nothing but great experiences, there are a few that went onto St Rose for k-8, and thats fine with me,...more room for my kids in the public schools.

About the full day program...that I am not too keen on. If I had not been clear about this, I am now.

Thats a long day for a 3 or 4 year old. There is (or was) the "Head Start Program" for low income parents that MUST work in order to keep the roof over their heads, or maybe they should sit home a collect welfare rather than work or continue with college studies to better themselves...till the child goes into K-8.

Are you saying that low income people need to get out of Freehold? or are you saying that Pre-K will attract low income people to Freehold?

Again, you need to learn the facts, there will be a finite number of Pre K-seats, and a lottery for eligibility (as I understood it, but maybe SOMEONE can clarify)

I should not have brought up the pre k issue. It has nothing to do with home schooling. You have not told me anything I do not already know.

Fiber, I admire your passion in defending the public schools. As I have stated, they have value and they are a vital part of a town. If I had kids in the public schools, I would want to see the best possible for them. That is very understandable. AS I said before, I know that many children do very well in public education.

The point of putting the home schooling topic out there is to show that there are alternatives for those who do not want to put their kids in public education. That is fair too. That is where you are missing the point. One size does not fit all.

Home schooling is a reality. One that is growing and as the article points out is losing it's stigma that once was attached. I know people who have home schooled and all of those kids were and are amazing. I have never met one that was behind in any way. But, home schooling is not for everyone. Neither is private school.

It is also clear Fiber that we disagree on big government. It is good to see that you have faith in it. Lucky for you, nothing is going to change and you have just what you want. As for me, I will still complain a lot. It is not what I vote for.


BTW, the doctor analogy is another very poor comparison. If you do not like the doctor you go to, you have every right to change that. With a school system it is not that easy. You are kinda stuck. ( not pointing any fingers at any schools here) And they keep taking your money anyway.

[fiberisgoodforyou]

admin said:

The point of putting the home schooling topic out there is to show that there are alternatives for those who do not want to put their kids in public education. That is fair too. That is where you are missing the point. One size does not fit all.

Home schooling is a reality. One that is growing and as the article points out is losing it's stigma that once was attached. I know people who have home schooled and all of those kids were and are amazing. I have never met one that was behind in any way. But, home schooling is not for everyone. Neither is private school.

So thats 6, up from 5 of ..5000 families in the Boro...I guess it is a growing trend.....

It is also clear Fiber that we disagree on big government. It is good to see that you have faith in it. Lucky for you, nothing is going to change and you have just what you want. As for me, I will still complain a lot. It is not what I vote for.

Either I was not clear, or you need to read what I wrote.... we need to ELIMINATE the layers of bureaucracy. The problem is when there is a vote to abolish home rule, for example....the overwhelming number of voters votes in favor of Home Rule...and this is what your paying for...

If the each County Executive Superattendants office took over EVERY of the k-8s, 9-12's and k-12s, there would be such an improved "economy" of scale for the overall funding, but more so form the collective savings from the cost of operations. The buying power, the bidding power, the bargaining power... rather than 660 autonomous school districts, there will be 21 "master" governing districts... BUT rather than something as common sense as this notion, people will scream about the loose of home rule. and that is why our taxes are going up..ELIMINATE THE Bureaucracy and do this simpler...not rocket science...its a solution glaring us in the eyeballs

BTW, the doctor analogy is another very poor comparison. If you do not like the doctor you go to, you have every right to change that. With a school system it is not that easy. You are kinda stuck. ( not pointing any fingers at any schools here) And they keep taking your money anyway.

No because if you want care and have to go "out of network" you paying a premium, unless you can conclusively prove otherwise..

Brain admit,... you bring up many great points in this thread, I would suggest that you have an opportunity to speak to our leaders from Trenton on Feb 28th, your highly articulate, TELL THEM that this is how they can earn your ongoing support, ask them whats the BIG Ideas to help reduce spending, address cost downs and eliminate ELIMINATE the layers of bureaucracy.

Ask them. which one was home schooled too?

[admin]

fiberisgoodforyou said:

I will edit..holdltight

admin said:

The point of putting the home schooling topic out there is to show that there are alternatives for those who do not want to put their kids in public education. That is fair too. That is where you are missing the point. One size does not fit all.

Home schooling is a reality. One that is growing and as the article points out is losing it's stigma that once was attached. I know people who have home schooled and all of those kids were and are amazing. I have never met one that was behind in any way. But, home schooling is not for everyone. Neither is private school.

So thats 6 up from 5 out of ..5000 families in the Boro...I guess it is a growing trend.....



Either I was not clear, or you need to read what I wrote.... we need to ELIMINATE the layers of bureaucracy. The problem is when there is a vote to abolish home rule, for example....the overwhelming number of voters votes in favor of Home Rule...and this is what your paying for...

The fact is, that if the each County Schools Executive Superattendants office took over EVERY of the k-8s, 9-12's and k-12s, there would be such an improved "economy" of scale for the overall funding, but more so form the collective savings from the cost of operations. The buying poer, the bidding power, the bargaining power..., but you see, rather than something as common sense as this notion, people will scream about the loose of home rule.

BTW, the doctor analogy is another very poor comparison. If you do not like the doctor you go to, you have every right to change that. With a school system it is not that easy. You are kinda stuck. ( not pointing any fingers at any schools here) And they keep taking your money anyway.

No because if you want care and have to go "out of network" you paying a premium, unless you can conclusively prove otherwise..

Brain//I will admit, you bring up many great points in this thread, I would sugget that you have an opportunity to speak to our leaders from Trenton on Feb 28th, your highly articulate, TELL THEM that this is how they can earn your ongoing support, ask them whats the BIG Ideas to help reduce spending, address cost downs and eliminate ELIMINATE the layers of bureaucracy.

Ask them. which one was home schooled too?

I was going to leave this thread alone but I have to make two points. I agree with your ideas on eliminating waste etc. We do agree on that. I just do not see it changing any time soon.


On the twenty eighth you will not see home schooled parents there because they do not need the hand outs or a very expensive system fixed. Their kids already have everything they need, and then some.

OK. A third point. Most networks have more than one doctor, so yes you can change fairly easy. Unlike a schools system, it takes just one call. With a bad schools system, it takes moving, preferably out of NJ. Just wait till we get Hillarycare, that will change for the worse, but, that is a discussion for another thread.

[fiberisgoodforyou]

you couldn't wait for the final edit....

all the more reason for home school parents to show up on Feb 28th and tell ALL our elected officials of the great savings for the state Home Schooling represents!....They can bring your post with them as shameful final proof that Public schools are obsolete, after all, you can get a Masters degree on line now, why not a GED. ;D

In fact lets close all schools and buy every child a lap top. Apples are better for educational, Music and Art software.

Better yet... Laptops will not collect a pension. kids can IM each other at lunchtime, rather than getting each other in trouble in the cafeteria, and you eliminate the sandwich swapping too. There can be virtual PE with John Madden NFL Football, ohh and the At Home Virtual School orchestra. Just remember there is also the DARK Side though IM Bulling and Intolerance.

Hey...we can load up Golf Programs, so the county will no longer need to have ANY golf courses too.

Sorry, but for our family we have chosen to have our kids exposed to the real thing so that the can learn how life truly works, so that they can run for student council and either win or lose, so that they can interact with their peers from 9:00 AM to 3:00 PM and not have mom and dad all over them, and that they can experience independent decision making, and learn about consequence for their actions, .... because this is the real world they will grow up into...IMHO

Others that have chose to school at home, I wish them and their children the best of luck and to have a fruitful life... Maybe the child needs the flexibility because of an acting or modeling commitment, maybe mom and / or dad travels a lot for business and takes the entire family on great and wondrous trips...this you will NEVER get in a class room, and that IS COOL. There are many good reasons for home schooling beyond, I don't care to have my kids in "THOSE" schools, with "Those People, Those "so called Professional degreed educators,.. teaching MY CHILDREN", and then there are those diseases those other children spread around" YHUUUCKKKIE.

[fiberisgoodforyou]

BTW very credible and without an agenda...National Home Education Research Institute! www.nheri.org/

Go Google Dr. Brian and Betsy Ray and judge for yourself...

I will conclude with this final thought,....
.....you can not learn how to ride a bike from a book!