|
|
Post by Marc LeVine on Jul 10, 2007 14:27:25 GMT -5
I like getting into these discussions. What else is the board for?
Getting to your point on the federal government focusing on the wrong stuff, I have to wonder what their day actually consists of in Washington. I mean - how is their time managed? They seem to cram an awful alot into a daily session. I suppose that is why it takes so long to often see what amounts to mediocre results.
As I understand it Congress is set up much like Freehold Borough, with Senators and Congressmen breaking out into various committees. However, these are mostly substantive topics they are dealing with. They have to listen to hours of testimony, review countless records and engage in stinging debates. Their's are often Topics that usually have a huge effect on the entire nation. Or, at least, on entire regions. Wonder where they find the time to handle the smaller issues within the larger ones?
In other words, if they were to discuss Wheel hubs. How might they elevate that one, tiny safety issue to the floor of some major health and safety-focused Committee? Ad hoc Committees? Layers of bureaucracy? It becomes rather protracted. Either that, or they just rush through these smaller agenda items without giving them much time or thought. Then again, they always seem to have reams of paperwork supporting their decisions, don't they?
Very interesting. And, I agree - frustrating - and often not even worthwhile. In a small town like Freehold Borough, there is also alot to consider, but nowhere near what the County, State or Feds have on their plates each day
Marc
|
|
|
|
Post by admin on Jul 11, 2007 8:18:30 GMT -5
When I wrote that , I had crawled out from under the rock. Actually, that post is a fine reflection of a person who really needs a day off. Been working too much. And do not worry about the positive PR, there is plenty of it.  Marc, I was almost with you until your last sentence here. The feds have no business in these issues and I will get back to that later. Not a global issue! Safety and responsibility is first and foremost a personal issue and in the case of children a parental one. Do not be so foolish as to wait for government action to save you form yourself. national health issue? Your health is your responsibility, not Washington's Marc, by tying health care and unhealthy habits together, you shot your own argument down in the above statements. Alcohol, smoking, junk food and many other CHOICES are all well known to be very bad for us. Not exercising, VERY BAD. What you alluded to on health care is that it is all right for other people to pay for mine and every other persons mistakes. If people do not make the right personal choices, we will not see health care go down, no matter how much you think big brother should step in. Over regulation can and usually does drive costs up. Until we have a system where people pay their own way, or for their own mistakes, we will not see cost reduction. That pertains to everything, not just health care. I am sorry to hear about the costs of your health care, and I am very glad that you are still here with us, so I am not making this about you and I specific. The FDA has been an obstacle in cost reduction and getting much needed care and medicine to people. Rampant fraud has driven costs up. Our overly litigious society has really driven costs up. Ask doctors how much they pay in malpractice insurance. It is driving many of them right out of business, and that is after those costs are passed down to patients numbers. We have to be very careful about socialized medicine and the direction we go in who pays for what. Remember, health care is one seventh of our national economy. That is a big number to screw up. That also opens the door for too much regulation and I do not know about you, but I have yet to see very many programs that the government runs efficiently with regards to costs and quality. Almost anything you can think of where the government and private sector business do the same thing, the private sector will almost always surpass the quality and effectiveness of what the governments will. Research that. It is well documented. You also mention the Chinese products. Who let them in? Marc, In your last couple of sentences, you bring up points to think about. I have come out swinging against government regulation and have done so more to stir the pot. My big question and point in all of this is where does the responsibility lie? This topic has been discussed before on this site and it is a good one. Who should regulate chimenea's? Washington? New Jersey? or Freehold Borough? I pick the last. Who should regulate our rental property? Washington? Who regulates the Chinese products coming into our country? Who allowed them? Freehold Borough? The Chinese will suffer the wrath of the angry consumer with what they have been dumping on us. Ultimately, no one is forcing us to buy any crap that is on the market. Who regulates bikes? First should be the consumer. As with everything. The most important question in all of this is what level of government should do what. I believe that the social issues belong on the state level. Health care, schools, abortion, marriage, welfare, etc. should be reflective of the needs and beliefs of the state population. That gives us all more choices and competition. That also gives us room for failure and mistakes. Imagine universal health care on the federal level. What happens if it is a great big failure? There will be no recourse or way to fix it at that point. |
|
|
|
Post by Freehold Resident on Jul 11, 2007 8:25:43 GMT -5
Here's a simple solution:
Just legalize EVERYTHING and let natural selection take control.
I swear...it would be SO much easier and we'd get rid of all of the stupid people!! ;D
FR
|
|
|
|
Post by admin on Jul 11, 2007 8:29:49 GMT -5
Here's a simple solution: Just legalize EVERYTHING and let natural selection take control. I swear...it would be SO much easier and we'd get rid of all of the stupid people!! ;D FR Your tone is a wee bit nasty, but you are not far off, FR. Substitiute natuaral selection for a free market and you are really on track. We will make you a libertarian yet! |
|
|
|
Post by fiberisgoodforyou on Jul 11, 2007 8:30:36 GMT -5
When I wrote that , I had crawled out from under the rock. Actually, that post is a fine reflection of a person who really needs a day off. Been working too much. And do not worry about the positive PR, there is plenty of it. Marc, I was almost with you until your last sentence here. The feds have no business in these issues and I will get back to that later. Not a global issue! Safety and responsibility is first and foremost a personal issue and in the case of children a parental one. Do not be so foolish as to wait for government action to save you form yourself. national health issue? Your health is your responsibility, not Washington's Marc, by tying health care and unhealthy habits together, you shot your own argument down in the above statements. Alcohol, smoking, junk food and many other CHOICES are all well known to be very bad for us. Not exercising, VERY BAD. What you alluded to on health care is that it is all right for other people to pay for mine and every other persons mistakes. If people do not make the right personal choices, we will not see health care go down, no matter how much you think big brother should step in. Over regulation can and usually does drive costs up. Until we have a system where people pay their own way, or for their own mistakes, we will not see cost reduction. That pertains to everything, not just health care. I am sorry to hear about the costs of your health care, and I am very glad that you are still here with us, so I am not making this about you and I specific. The FDA has been an obstacle in cost reduction and getting much needed care and medicine to people. Rampant fraud has driven costs up. Our overly litigious society has really driven costs up. Ask doctors how much they pay in malpractice insurance. It is driving many of them right out of business, and that is after those costs are passed down to patients numbers. We have to be very careful about socialized medicine and the direction we go in who pays for what. Remember, health care is one seventh of our national economy. That is a big number to screw up. That also opens the door for too much regulation and I do not know about you, but I have yet to see very many programs that the government runs efficiently with regards to costs and quality. Almost anything you can think of where the government and private sector business do the same thing, the private sector will almost always surpass the quality and effectiveness of what the governments will. Research that. It is well documented. You also mention the Chinese products. Who let them in? Marc, In your last couple of sentences, you bring up points to think about. I have come out swinging against government regulation and have done so more to stir the pot. My big question and point in all of this is where does the responsibility lie? This topic has been discussed before on this site and it is a good one. Who should regulate chimenea's? Washington? New Jersey? or Freehold Borough? I pick the last. Who should regulate our rental property? Washington? Who regulates the Chinese products coming into our country? Who allowed them? Freehold Borough? The Chinese will suffer the wrath of the angry consumer with what they have been dumping on us. Ultimately, no one is forcing us to buy any crap that is on the market. Who regulates bikes? First should be the consumer. As with everything. The most important question in all of this is what level of government should do what. I believe that the social issues belong on the state level. Health care, schools, abortion, marriage, welfare, etc. should be reflective of the needs and beliefs of the state population. That gives us all more choices and competition. That also gives us room for failure and mistakes. Imagine universal health care on the federal level. What happens if it is a great big failure? There will be no recourse or way to fix it at that point. Good work Admin!!!, can I quote you on this? :-) |
|
bergsteiger
Full Member
War is simple, direct, and ruthless
Posts: 1,189
|
Post by bergsteiger on Jul 11, 2007 8:36:34 GMT -5
Here's a simple solution: Just legalize EVERYTHING and let natural selection take control. I swear...it would be SO much easier and we'd get rid of all of the stupid people!! ;D FR You might be one of the first to go. |
|
|
|
Post by Freehold Resident on Jul 11, 2007 8:48:08 GMT -5
Bergsteiger said: You might be one of the first to go. Nah...don't think so. Right after you....ladies first.. FR |
|
|
|
Post by Marc LeVine on Jul 11, 2007 8:55:50 GMT -5
Brian: I enjoyed reading your responses to my post. Definately, Libertarian leaning. Is that bad? Of course not. It's a choice and it matches your particular value system. The problem I have with the Libertarian view is that to make its points it is far too willing to overlook the harm done to many of those, who truly cannot help themselves and may be taken advantage of in multiple situations. - Must a child be injured or die because they are unfortunately born to irresponsible parents?
Must a man or woman become ill, not just due to poor choice, but from harmful and UNECCESARY exposures?
Must those faced with unfortunate "challenges," be cast adrift to swim or sink - especially, with regard to medical treatments and medicines, based on his/her ability to pay?
Perhaps, I am a bit too soft on the needs of others, who are not as fortunate as me (at least, in some ways). Perhaps, I am too skeptical about the intentions of some business people and how far they will go to profit, if unchecked. And, perhaps, I am a little too hopeful that our government can solve many of these problems. Perhaps, we are being conditioned to concede too much on what our government might be doing, instead of finding better ways to make them more accountable for the better results they should be getting. |
|
adefonzo
Junior Member
If I can see further than some, it's because I have stood on the shoulders of giants
Posts: 308
|
Post by adefonzo on Jul 11, 2007 9:38:31 GMT -5
I don't know why...but this topic continues to be a real thorn in my side.
There is one simple thought I want to present everyone with...
Is government supposed to protect us from ourselves? Or is it up to us to take care of ourselves?
If you are someone who feels the government should protect us from every little threat in our lives, and coddle us when we feel uncomfortable...I am afraid you and I will just never see eye to eye on this topic.
I know what someone is going to respond with...but I'll hold off on my reply until it comes up...
|
|
|
|
Post by Freehold Resident on Jul 11, 2007 9:59:59 GMT -5
ADefonzo:
I agree with you on what you are saying...for the most part.
However, I definitely believe there are some things that will endanger others. If we're talking about the fire pits or chimineas, I personally wouldn't want my house burned down because of someone else's behavior.
There are many things that I feel the government shouldn't stick their grubby hands in---but when it comes to safety, that's a touchy area, because it deals with someone else's actions directly affecting others.
Should government protect people from themselves? No. But should government protect people from other people? Yes, if it warrants that.
FR
|
|
|
|
Post by admin on Jul 11, 2007 10:23:38 GMT -5
But should government protect people from other people? Yes, if it warrants that.
FR
FR. How far should the government go to protect you? Where is the line. A general statement like yours is broad and leaves the door wide open for massive intrussion.
|
|
|
|
Post by admin on Jul 11, 2007 10:40:37 GMT -5
Brian: I enjoyed reading your responses to my post. Definitely, Libertarian leaning. Is that bad? Of course not. It's a choice and it matches your particular value system. The problem I have with the Libertarian view is that to make its points it is far too willing to overlook the harm done to many of those, who truly cannot help themselves and may be taken advantage of in multiple situations. - Must a child be injured or die because they are unfortunately born to irresponsible parents?
Must a man or woman become ill, not just due to poor choice, but from harmful and UNNECESSARY exposures?
Must those faced with unfortunate "challenges," be cast adrift to swim or sink - especially, with regard to medical treatments and medicines, based on his/her ability to pay?
Perhaps, I am a bit too soft on the needs of others, who are not as fortunate as me (at least, in some ways). Perhaps, I am too skeptical about the intentions of some business people and how far they will go to profit, if unchecked. And, perhaps, I am a little too hopeful that our government can solve many of these problems. Perhaps, we are being conditioned to concede too much on what our government might be doing, instead of finding better ways to make them more accountable for the better results they should be getting. Marc, You are right, I have Libertarian leanings, but that is not the reason I hammer away with that train of thought. The one thing I have always liked about Libertarianism is how it challenges the more traditional liberal and conservative belief systems. I am more the latter. Both the left and the right in this country call the others oppressors. They both try to legislate their own brand of morality. I throw the libertarian thinking in more to challenge people. There is nothing wrong with people asking what role the government has or how much we allow business to get away with. The differing view points are great. My personal belief system is one that puts faith in, and accentuates the individual. I believe to do otherwise is insulting and degrading to the human condition. Your points and belief in government regulation is not without merit. I do recognize that government has a role and has to exist. The one question that can never be answered is when is enough, enough? This is where I become critical of all "progressive" thought. That would be environmentalists and unions for example. They never provide an end as to when their goals and concerns are met. In a state like ours, we are very over regulated. I believe it is safe to say that many people are tired of it. And while our schools are in trouble, our wonderful legislators are more concerned with nonsense like trans fats and bikes. The latter two are choices we make. Riding a bike can cause harm. Eating badly does cause harm The schools are a valuable part of our society and infrastructure. Our government has it's head on back-words. And that is why people lose faith. |
|
|
|
Post by Freehold Resident on Jul 11, 2007 10:48:44 GMT -5
Brian--
What do you think of Bill Maher, as he's also a libertarian?
FR
|
|
|
|
Post by Marc LeVine on Jul 11, 2007 12:20:05 GMT -5
Marc,
.
I'm glad that people remain true to their values as elected leaders. I just wish some of them had better values to begin with. I'd really like to know what their values are in advance of voting for them, too. Then, we must realize that with so many people elected to office, we eventually end up with a "sea of values" actually more of a "soup." Actually, a dense fog. No...it's a paralysis!
The natural opposition that comes from clashing values causes some of the watered down legislation we often see, as well as the occasional public outcry of - "WHAT WAS THAT?" that slips through the cracks, when a liberal or conservative measure gets passed.
There is no human condition, really. There's just you and me and how we each feel, act and respond in life. We all have different values, capabilities, needs and - unfortunately - troubles. We're a diverse lot in many ways.
Some of us are good on our own and others need special help and support. We have strengths and weaknesses. Our differences often create unwanted consequences for others. This latter part most concerns me. In fact, many of the complaints on this board - about slumlords, illegal employers, shopping cart owners, seedy developers, inconsiderate neighbors and tenants, taxi cab operators and drivers, storefront operators like 6-12, Wall cops that apparently allow illegal restaurants in homes, etc. all seem to lead to complaints that ask government for some form of protection. And we're not even taking about the real felons, yet. Anarchy would result if there were no rules or consequences.
Enough is when it goes from public to personal. If it negatively effects others, it's for government. When one's actions are not intrusive upon others, it's not for government.
There ARE also the blurred lines. Drinking alcohol is a personal choice. We should know what's in the bottle and what it does to us. However, serving it to a minor or driving under its influence is a public matter of concern. Therefore, it is not illegal for an adult to drink any amount of alcohol, but if caught driving drunk...
Smoking is a choice. But, creating second hand smoke in a public place is illegal. Smoke as much as you want at home, but don't blow it in my face at a bar. We can't create safe smoke, but if we could, I'd be for trying to switch people to a better way to avoid cancer and heart disease - thereby, reducing health care costs.
Eating french fries is a choice. But, if we can reduce health care costs by frying them with no trans-fats, why not? No one switching to 0 Trans-fats has been put out of business, yet. What galls people most about this is not the thought of dealing with this, but rather it's seemingly low level of priority on the current events totem pole.
I submit that if Trans-fats were totally dropped and 5 years from now a measurable decline in heart disease was tied to the effort, the move would be hailed as a great achievement. Guaranteed.
People are most tired about things just not getting done. Government takes much too long to act (e.g. Immigration, etc) and the stiffest regulations are the ones that regulate government, itself. You can't do this...you can't do that!
Government gets tied up in its own red tape. The system needs some streamlining and modernization. Corruption must be rooted out and politicians need to better understand who they really serve - not party bosses and lobbyists. In reality, there is plenty of time for T&E funding AND for zero trans-fats in processed foods. Getting there involves multitasking.
It's just that the wrath of crap that comes from the political back and forths eats into the actual "doing." This is what makes us crazy.
Marc
And that is why people lose faith.
|
|
