adefonzo
Junior Member
If I can see further than some, it's because I have stood on the shoulders of giants
Posts: 308
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Post by adefonzo on Dec 13, 2007 8:12:49 GMT -5
I held off on posting anything yesterday about my piece in the News Transcript because I was waiting to get some feedback about the column. I have to admit, when General Bergsteiger, not necessarily known for his subtle nature, simply responds with "OUCH", you get the picture that this column may have been a bit rough. But I wanted to hear more, and so I waited. There are those who have congratulated me, thanked me, and a newcomer to this website, Jeffham says I "inspired" him...yikes...please, don't hold me up to that standard going forward!!  There have also been others who have basically told me to watch my back...that retribution is certain to be coming in some form or another from "the machine". I am also ready and waiting for the calls of me being a racist, or a bigot, despite the fact that I tried to keep the issue about illegal immigrants, not any particular nationality, and despite the fact that anyone who really knows me knows that I am anything but those things. We'll see what happens, sticks and stones...as the old saying goes. There were also those who told me right from the start that I should not have written this, that it can only do harm; that I was creating bigger problems; that I was spitting in the wind. These are the people I have to address here and now... I have a very simple question to ask anyone who was opposed to, or in any way did not appreciate the opinion in my column... did I lie? Was there anything in the column that was not true? Did I exaggerate the details to make them seem worse than they really were? I criticized the Mayor and the Town Council...you're darn tootin' I did (don't want to upset the censors), but I don't believe that anything that was in the column was a lie. After reading Rich's original column, and then seeing all the defenders coming out of the woodwork, it became crystal clear that in Freehold Boro, we have a Mayor and Town Council who simply do not want anyone questioning them. How dare we state an opposing opinion with any conviction!! How dare we say they are not doing all that they can to make this a better town!! If you didn't get that impression from the blowback to Rich's letter, Mayor Wilson's comments about this site being "nothing more than a Republican political Web site with a handful of malcontent bloggers." should have certainly made this clear. They don't want anyone questioning them or standing up to them, especially not someone who can present a clear, fact based, well researched, intelligent opposing opinion. Well, despite what they may think, fortunately, we don't live in a totalitarian state. Being allowed to stand up, question, and criticize your elected leaders is at the very heart of democracy folks, and god help us when we start to lose sight of that. Why didn't I concentrate my efforts on trying to work with the Mayor and Town Council to find solutions to the problems of our town? I have been tied to this town for 32 of my 33 years on this earth, and I have seen a parade of people before me who have tried to approach the Mayor and Town Council in order to work through some of these (and other) issues. And one by one, I have watched them all get shut down, pushed aside, and drowned out. For me to get in that line and wait for my turn to be silenced is an absolute waste of my time, and an insult to my intelligence. There are times when unfortunately the only recourse we the people have is to expose the hypocrisy of our elected leaders in the media in an effort to make more people aware of it. I could have gone to Town Council meetings and stood up in front of the 15 or 20 people who might have been there that night, stated my case and been done with it. Or I could write a column in a newspaper that hits just about every house in our town, as well as all the surrounding towns, and gotten my point out to hundreds if not thousands. When you're looking to effect change, and trying to clear away the apathy that has settled on this town like a dense fog, you go for the larger audience. This is normally the point where someone would say "I'm sorry if I offended anyone, it wasn't my intent" - not me. If I offended someone, grow a thicker skin. As I asked before, did I lie? If the truth is offensive to you, tough. And if our elected leaders don't like the idea of people questioning them, they need to look for another line of work. |
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bergsteiger
Full Member
War is simple, direct, and ruthless
Posts: 1,189
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Post by bergsteiger on Dec 13, 2007 9:54:20 GMT -5
"I held off on posting anything yesterday about my piece in the News Transcript because I was waiting to get some feedback about the column. I have to admit, when General Bergsteiger, not necessarily known for his subtle nature, simply responds with "OUCH", you get the picture that this column may have been a bit rough. But I wanted to hear more, and so I waited." It was not "Rough". More like sharp and to the pointy. Nice work  |
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Post by casualreader on Dec 14, 2007 10:00:23 GMT -5
As DeFonzo points out in his letter to the News Transcript we do not live in a totalitarian state, so I want to look at some of his dubious assertions. I am an imperfect defender and I hope the LLA and Casa Freehold address this in the media directly but here are my observations on the Defonzo dude's letter. The Defonzo dude mentions -- Now how does the Defonzo man know those are Latinos scribbling on those walls? He does not know -- He is assuming that based on his biases against the community. I also want to say that I have seen few instances of graffiti in the borough -- can the Defonzo dude point out where he has seen graffiti? The Defonzo dude makes the following statement -- Andy -- There are 6 or 7 very good Mexican/Hispanic restaurants in the downtown area -- with this statement you are minimizing the accomplishments of hard working people. Those restaurants are quite good -- I have gone to most of them. They are unique and a plus for the town. Now here is my favorite -- What a snob!!  What an elitist snob!!! These are mom and pop stores that provide needed services to the community -- They are making their money honestly. They are paying rent -- they are making use of downtown retail space. I do not see the Western Union sign up at all of these places, but hey if you make some money and you want to send it to Italy or China or Mexico -- That is your right! My final point here is you seem to suggest in your followup statements that you represent a growing number of residents here unhappy about the way things are. Wilson and company just beat the Cr-- out of Teddy. I bet if you run they will beat the Cr-- out of you to. The issues you and Kelso dude raise have dominated news in the town for the last five years -- so I am not sure that there is any particularly new revelation here. The community is changing and people like you don't like it. You want to stop the change. Same old story Casually Hispanic |
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adefonzo
Junior Member
If I can see further than some, it's because I have stood on the shoulders of giants
Posts: 308
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Post by adefonzo on Dec 14, 2007 12:59:04 GMT -5
Ah Casual...I must inquire...are you a big fan of Chubby Checker? I ask because you love to "do the twist"
There will be those who will think it foolish of me to continue to answer your statements when all you do is cherry pick parts of what people say, and twist the words to suit your own points...but since I do not consider myself to be "an elitist snob" as you feel I am, I will try once more to explain my points in order to better educate you, or anyone else who seems to have a problem reading only parts someone's words, rather than all of them.
Let's start with the graffitti. As I stated in the column, this point was brought up by our Chief of Police to the Mayor and Town Council...are you suggesting that the Chief of Police does not know what he is talking about? As for myself, I have seen graffitti in Veterans Park, on signs over by Throckmorton St, and out on South Street to name just a few places.
And just so you know, I never said that it was Latino's scribbling the graffitti, that is something you mentioned...perhaps you should examine your own biases?? I simply made the suggestion that graffitti has never been such a problem in this town until the illegal immigrant population has exploded to such a large number, therefore, it's reasonable to assume that it is the illegal population that is scribbling a large amount of this graffitti.
There are several, legal Mexican/Hispanic restaurants downtown. Believe it or not, I have gone to a couple of them on several occasions, and (brace yourself Casual) I actually enjoyed the food!! I know...I am making great strides to bring myself down off of my elitist pedestal. If the owners of those establishments felt they were slighted in any way because of my statement, it was not my intention. My article was about the illegal immigrants in our town, and it was illegal immigrants who were operating the illegal restaurant that has been busted on two different occasions now.
And as for the "mom and pop" stores that seem to cater solely to a particular portion of the community since those of us who do not speak or read English are not sure what their signs are advertising...again, you missed what I said, so I will explain it simply to you, and I will try not to use big, elitist words...
When I brought up those establishments, I never once mentioned or even suggested that they were some sort of illegal business not making their money honestly. I brought these stores up because they are a part of what the Mayor and Town Council as well as the advocacy groups would have the public believe are examples of the rich and historical culture that a large hispanic community can bring to our town. I have several hispanic friends and acquaintances, and I asked them if they felt such stores represented their culture...the words they used are not allowed on this website, but basically, they said "no". Then again...perhaps these friends of mine are also elitist snobs who have just assimilated to the point where they no longer should be able to call themselves Hispanic?? I trust you with your infinite wisdom and tolerance, will be make that judgment for them.
As to your point about the success of Wilson and company, you seem to relish in the fact that they "beat the Cr-- out of Teddy. I bet if you run they will beat the Cr-- out of you to." Those are actually rather harsh words for you Casual...perhaps you are finding a bit too much pleasure in the misery of others? Something you may want to examine in one of your psychology journals.
One last thing...a question really...if you really did read the whole article, instead of just those portions which you could twist around to suit your point, did you happen to catch the part about the town getting together with the advovacy groups and finding some lawyers that would help these folks become legal, tax paying citizens? I wonder what your thoughts are on that.
You see, despite your best efforts to make it appear otherwise, I am not some hate monger that just wants certain people to be thrown out of our town. I do not support in any way people who have come to this country illegally, who use our system to benefit themselves while making no effort to become a legal citizen who can then contribute their fair share to that system.
I would much rather see these illegal immigrants get on the road to becoming legal, tax paying citizens instead of remaining here illegally. Becoming a legal citizen can help them in numerous ways...employers will no longer be able to take advantage of their hard work by paying them considerably lower wages and not covering them should they get hurt on the job. They would be eligible for benefits such as social security and financial assistance for their children should they decide to attend college. They would no longer have to worry about reporting crimes against them for fear of being deported. There are so many more pluses to them becoming legal citizens, and yet I never...NEVER hear of anyone trying to put them on the path to becoming so, other than those that just want the government to wave a magic wand and simply make them all legal in an instant.
What say you about that?
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Post by casualreader on Dec 15, 2007 11:01:09 GMT -5
Thank you DeFonzo Dude for your response. Let me briefly respond to your response -- out of courtesy if you would like to have the last word on this subject I will leave it at that. About the "cherry-picking" -- I selected the issues from your letter that I found offensive to the immigrant community. The fact you do not think the Mayor for Life has done a good job is not a problem for me. I see no reason to go over every single one of your points because people can review your letter here and judge whether I was unfair. As for the graffiti -- You said: Come on let's get real Mr. DeFonzo -- You are linking the graffiti very clearly to the Hispanic immigration. If I wrote something like "hate crimes have increased in Freehold Borough since DeFonzo started posting on the Freehold Message Board." I am technically not saying you are the cause -- I am implying it. What is sad about that is you have no proof -- Nothing -- absolutely nothing. As a member of the board of education it is shameful that you make these statements with no proof. The chief did not say Hispanics were placing the graffiti on the wall did he? YOU link the two -- with ZERO evidence. As for your restaurant remarks -- the immigrant population has brought with it a local demand for Hispanic food. You chose the case of the illegal restaurant to make your point. You leave out the fact in your letter that there are many very good "legal" Hispanic restaurants in the borough. They are contributing to our downtown business area. That is missing from your letter and I am criticizing that omission. As for the mom and pop stores -- they sell a lot of interesting stuff which do in fact offer insight into the cultures of Mexico and Central America. Go on big guy walk into one and ask them about the interesting drinks they have to offer from Mexico -- I had one the other day it was made partially from corn -- I can't say I thoroughly enjoyed it but it was interesting. They have all sorts of root crops -- interesting stuff. Go into one of the stores Andy -- Put your arm around the man or woman behind the counter -- Don't be timid -- ask him about these items. A whole new world awaits you. I bet with his broken English and your tortured Spanish a new friendship might emerge.  As for Wilson -- I simply wanted to let you know that your criticism of him is not unique or original. I have read dozens of similar postings right here on the subject. On your last point: On this issue, I am no expert, but on this site and other places I have repeatedly read articles that state that after 9-11 leglization programs were mostly eliminated. This was one of the issues that was brought up in Washington in the spring when they failed to do anything about the immigration mess. Kelso dude may be able to shed light on this subject -- although I am not sure he practices that type of law. Until Washington resolves the matter it appears people locally will be left to slug out among themselves. Councilman Levine dude wrote on this many times here. Casually Responding to DeFonzo Dude's Response |
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Post by admin on Dec 15, 2007 12:21:25 GMT -5
Personally, I not care who is doing the graffiti. I just look at it for what it is- another sign of urban decay occurring in our beautiful town.
My one question. Is the graffiti gang related and if so, what gang(s)
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Post by admin on Dec 15, 2007 12:22:38 GMT -5
Personally, I not care who is doing the graffiti. I just look at it for what it is- another sign of urban decay occurring in our beautiful town. My one question. Is the graffiti gang related and if so, what gang(s) I ask the question about gangs due to the fact that Ronnie Steppat, the police liaison to the human relations comittee, flat out stated that yes we do have gang issues here. |
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Post by casualreader on Dec 15, 2007 16:41:05 GMT -5
They have no graffiti in suburbia? I have to say I see little graffiti in the borough and no evidence that the immigrants are buying spray cans and vandalizing anything.
If there is a bad rain/snow storm tonight you will find several people on this board ready to blame the immigrants.
Casually Forecasting the Weather
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Post by fiberisgoodforyou on Dec 15, 2007 21:08:57 GMT -5
By definition, an immigrant will posses a US VISA (not credit or debit card).
Procedures and process providing evident prerequisite eligibility allows the issuance of a U.S. VISA to "ONLY" those who QUALIFY for green cards.
Thus only an "immigrant visa" enables the holder to enter the United States, take up permanent residence if they chose, and receive his or her green card.
IMMIGRANT: In popular usage, an "immigrant" is generally understood to be a person who migrates to another country, usually for permanent residence. Under this definition, therefore, an "immigrant" is an alien admitted to the U.S. as a lawful permanent resident. The emphasis in this definition is upon the presumptions that (1) the immigrant followed U.S. laws and procedures in establishing residence in our country; (2) he or she wishes to reside here permanently; and (3) he or she swears allegiance to our country or at least solemnly affirms that he/she will observe and respect our laws and our Constitution.
ALIEN: By contrast, an "alien" is generally understood to be a foreigner -- a person who comes from a foreign country -- who does not owe allegiance to our country.
ILLEGAL ALIEN: An "illegal alien" is a foreigner who (1) does not owe allegiance to our country; and (2) who has violated our laws and customs in establishing residence in our country. He or she is therefore a criminal under applicable U.S. laws.
The term "illegal alien" is used by U.S. citizens who believe that non-citizens entering our country must comply with our immigration laws.
The term "illegal alien" is predicated upon U.S. immigration law which requires foreigners entering the U.S. to comply with our country's rules and laws regarding entry into, and residence within, our country.
UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANT: An "undocumented immigrant" is the same as an "illegal alien", and is a criminal under applicable U.S. laws.
Most U.S. citizens do not use the term "undocumented immigrant" and prefer, instead, the more descriptive and accurate term "illegal alien".
The term "undocumented immigrant" is used by those who believe in "open borders", i.e., non-regulation of foreigners entering into and assuming residence in the U.S., including even those foreigners who owe allegiance to a foreign government and/or who may intend harm to the U.S.
SO who's talking about immigrants? Immigrants are not an issue.
The ILLEGAL ALIEN is the core of whats at issue.
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Post by fiberisgoodforyou on Dec 15, 2007 21:49:13 GMT -5
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Post by admin on Dec 15, 2007 22:46:11 GMT -5
They have no graffiti in suburbia? I have to say I see little graffiti in the borough and no evidence that the immigrants are buying spray cans and vandalizing anything. If there is a bad rain/snow storm tonight you will find several people on this board ready to blame the immigrants. Casually Forecasting the Weather I did not blame the illegals for the graffiti. I did not blame anyone except the ones who are doing it. I do not know who they are. Please do not put words into my mouth CR. |
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adefonzo
Junior Member
If I can see further than some, it's because I have stood on the shoulders of giants
Posts: 308
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Post by adefonzo on Dec 16, 2007 8:53:23 GMT -5
This is not intended to be the "last word" on anything, Casual, but let me say this...
I'll concede...you're absolutely right...I have no hard evidence that shows that illegal immigrants are painting, or otherwise marking the graffiti in town that, despite your not seeing it, has gotten bad enough that the Chief of Police recommended the ordinance to the Council and Mayor.
There seems to be a common theme between your posts, and what we hear from the Mayor, Town Council, and advocacy groups. You seem to be unwilling to separate the Hispanic community from the illegal immigrant community. You don't even use the word illegal in many of your posts when talking about the immigrant population here in town. This is how you, and the advocacy groups, and others who support illegal immigrants are continually able to call others "Bigots" "Racists" and "Elitist snobs". There is no doubt many people out there who do fit into those categories, but to use them as blanket statements about anyone who opposes illegal immigrants is wrong.
"Go on big guy", try it...say there is a difference between illegal immigrants and a legal Hispanic community. Say that being opposed to someone who's very presence in our country is breaking the law, is different from being racist and bigoted towards an entire race of decent people. How about you try this, talk to someone of Hispanic heritage who is here legally and who is also opposed to illegal immigrants, see if they like the fact that you lump both groups together as one. Perhaps then you will start to realize why others continue to disagree with you.
I'll tell you what else...since neither of us know each other outside of this message board, let's say we stop assuming things about one another in regards to what we do in our private lives. This includes you assuming that I have never ventured into one of the stores downtown with only Spanish writing on the signs. This includes you assuming that I have difficulty separating Hispanics from Illegal Immigrants. This includes your assuming that I am unable to separate my position on the school board from my opinions as an individual citizen. As I have stated on this site numerous times...I know what my responsibilities are as a school board member. I know what restrictions are placed on me by the laws of this state. I have never once (though you have suggested it) tried to have kids thrown out of the schools because of their immigration status or the immigration status of their parents. As a board member, I make my judgments based on what I feel is best for the entire school population, not one section of it (whatever that section may be). Tell you what...I'm up for re-election in April. Since you are obviously so concerned about my presence on the board...you are welcome to come out from obscurity and run against me. Let the legal, voting population in town decide, that's how democracy works.
Casually leaving the conversation open
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Post by fiberisgoodforyou on Dec 16, 2007 13:29:21 GMT -5
Andrew, care to convince Maḥmûd Aḥmadînezhâd that the Holocaust happened too?
It is an utter waist of time, effort, energy and intellect to engage in attempting to convincing the open boarder crowd, that illegal Aliens are just that,.. Illegal and Aliens. Introducing the word Immigrant into the conversation adds irrelevant context, adding further unconceivable (and inconceivable) credence!
BTW, How unexpected, the Graffiti is not that of the Westies, nor the Potato Bag gang, !
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bergsteiger
Full Member
War is simple, direct, and ruthless
Posts: 1,189
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Post by bergsteiger on Dec 17, 2007 8:14:06 GMT -5
GRAFFITI AND IDENTIFIERS
Mexican street gangs on the East Coast have taken on similar traits to other street gangs. Initially, these gangs were social in nature and seldom interacted with other groups unless they were involved in drinking and partying. Their structure was loose-knit. Today, these gangs are more like their American counterparts. Leadership roles are usually assumed by the most violent member of the gang. This leader appoints a second in command and issues orders to the soldiers. The leader is called "Mero Mero," which means Chief or Godfather.
Mexican gang graffiti is more simplistic and to the point than other street gang graffiti. In the picture above, Vagos is abbreviated by taking the first letter of the gang name, the middle letter and last letter to make up the gangs version of an acronym (VGS). This abbreviation technique is extremely common to Mexican gangs on the East Coast. Their graffiti seldom uses symbols and needs almost no interpretation. As is plainly stated in the picture, Vagos are prominent around the area of West 116 Street. Gangs like the Vagos (a.k.a. Los Vagos) and other Mexican gangs will frequently insert a reference to 100%, which means "100% gangster" or "I am in this gang life 100%!"
Mexican gang graffiti may be less full of symbolism than that of other gangs, but their tattoos are highly symbolic in nature. Common to these gangsters is a picture of a pair of praying hands. These praying hands signify "praying to God for forgiveness."
Our lady of Guadalupe is the favorite patron saint of many Mexicans and a common tattoo worn by gang members. An example of a praying hands tattoo on a Mexican gang member.
The Cholo symbol (seen below), which signifies the struggle for acceptance in America during the 1940s, is frequently tattooed on the bodies of Mexican gang members. Choloization is the transition an individual makes away from the surrounding culture into the American street gang culture. During the early 20th Century, Mexican-American youth donned Zoot Suits as an expression of their individuality. The zoot-suiters were blamed for the Zoot Suit Riots in 1943, an altercation between sailors and Zoot Suiters, resulting in a ten-day riot in Los Angeles, California. It is still unclear, today, which group was the real blame for the 1943 riots.
Tattoos within the Mexican gang culture often contain phrases of great significance to the gang member. These include phrases like Mi Vida Loca (My Crazy Life) and Perdoname Mi Madre (Forgive Me, Mother) which are also symbolic of their awareness of their gangster life and how it is unaccepted by their family and others. These words or phrases are often tattooed in Old English style letters.
Many Mexican gangsters on the East Coast will also tattoo the web of their hands with drawings symbolic of their specialty within the gang. These hand tattoos are common among other Latino gangs present throughout North America. In some hardcore cases, these symbols will be burned into the hand.
Mexican gang turf during the middle 1990s on the East Coast was mostly temporary or non-existent. These gangs, which consisted of illegal aliens, were hesitant to remain in one neighborhood for any significant length of time. They were very nomadic and fled to neighborhoods miles away at the slightest hint of pressure from the authorities. They were careful to write graffiti and tags inside of buildings rather than out. During the late 1990s, Mexican gangs were claiming turf in neighborhoods in the northeast U.S. and hanging out in large groups without worry. Graffiti, marking their turf, became bold and superfluous. Large graffiti tags with the gangs name and membership roll call were now commonplace. Common turf for these gangs were neighborhoods with small apartments near restaurants and stores where they were employed. Today, these gang members will travel miles to work and stand on busy street corners in shape-up groups to obtain a day's work from contractors seeking cheap labor.
Most Mexican gangs prefer the colors of the Mexican flag as their gangs representative colors. The colors of the Mexican flag are green, white and red. There are, however, several gangs which have adopted other colors.
On the East Coast, many Mexican gangs have adopted beads with their representative colors. They were influenced by other Mexican gangs like the Latin Kings, La Familia and Netas which were using beaded necklaces since the 1980s. Beads, bandanas and color-coordinated clothing are now standard for Mexican gangs. Many members are discreet about revealing them, however, and may conceal these colors under a hat, on the inside of a belt, inside a knapsack, or inside a pants pocket. Mexican gang members are used to hiding their affiliation from the larger, more violent gangs of the Northeast like the Bloods and the Latin Kings. Because of the recent violence connected to Mexican gangs, they also hide their affiliation from the police.
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Post by admin on Dec 17, 2007 18:02:48 GMT -5
Since we are talking graffiti, I noticed some new graffiti on the sides of buildings along Main Street. One thing I saw is three capital "A's" with the middle one upside down. Does anyone know if there is any relevance to it? Or is it just nonsense?
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Post by richardkelsey on Dec 18, 2007 20:49:55 GMT -5
newstranscript.gmnews.com/news/2007/1219/Letters/022.htmlWriter supports comments by former resident Kudos to Rich Kelsey for his piece on Freehold Borough Mayor Mike Wilson ("Mayor's Missteps Over Years Have Hurt Freehold Borough," Your Turn, News Transcript, Nov. 7, 2007). I for one am glad that he continues to ask the tough questions and fight for a town where many refuse to stand up and be heard, and others have long ago voted with their feet, never to be heard from again. [Wilson] has served for 26 years on the Borough Council or as mayor and the immigration disaster started on his watch, and with his help. Those are facts. He gives rousing speeches for public consumption and then seemingly takes no real action. Well, I don't live in Virginia (like Rich Kelsey), I live here. So, Mr. Mayor, please tell me the answer. Why did you appoint a member of an open borders' lobby to and what did you know and when did you know it about his legal status?
Jeff Flegler
Freehold Borough
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Post by casualreader on Dec 19, 2007 9:32:28 GMT -5
Andy DeFonzo Dude:
Since you asked me to respond to your post of the other day I will.
I appreciate your acknowledging the fact that WE do not know who is putting up the graffiti. The graffiti might be indicative of a gang issue or it might be an angry teen-ager. Who knows?
As for the use of the word "illegal" followed by alien or immigrant -- my answer is a bit more complex. There is a large body of psychological, sociological and historical literature on the topic of "DEPERSONALIZATION."
Many social psychological experiments have been done showing that once you depersonalize a person -- you can justify all sorts of horrors against them. I am NOT saying they are similar but this is what was done to Jews, Gypsies and others in the concentration camps of Germany.
When you create a " feared stranger" then you can treat them as if they were an enemy or even worse not human.
I think demonizing a community is very dangerous. There are a lot of studies about this issue with patient populations. So to call them "illegals" goes against my professional ethics as a psychologist wannabe. I already work with patient populations -- people who have been marginalized and it is a very destructive process.
For years, the marginalization of the mentally ill led to their virtual incarceration in psychiatric hospitals. Their issues were simplified. They were less than "normal" and anything and everything was done to them.
I will not call the people in our community "illegals."
By the way, I was interviewed by University of Penn for entrance into the psychology program. I am optimistic.
Below is Defonzo's question so you can see what I am responding to.
Casually Illegal
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bergsteiger
Full Member
War is simple, direct, and ruthless
Posts: 1,189
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Post by bergsteiger on Dec 19, 2007 9:59:41 GMT -5
Andy DeFonzo Dude: Since you asked me to respond to your post of the other day I will. I appreciate your acknowledging the fact that WE do not know who is putting up the graffiti. The graffiti might be indicative of a gang issue or it might be an angry teen-ager. Who knows? As for the use of the word "illegal" followed by alien or immigrant -- my answer is a bit more complex. There is a large body of psychological, sociological and historical literature on the topic of "DEPERSONALIZATION." Many social psychological experiments have been done showing that once you depersonalize a person -- you can justify all sorts of horrors against them. I am NOT saying they are similar but this is what was done to Jews, Gypsies and others in the concentration camps of Germany. When you create a " feared stranger" then you can treat them as if they were an enemy or even worse not human. I think demonizing a community is very dangerous. There are a lot of studies about this issue with patient populations. So to call them "illegals" goes against my professional ethics as a psychologist wannabe. I already work with patient populations -- people who have been marginalized and it is a very destructive process. For years, the marginalization of the mentally ill led to their virtual incarceration in psychiatric hospitals. Their issues were simplified. They were less than "normal" and anything and everything was done to them. I will not call the people in our community "illegals." By the way, I was interviewed by University of Penn for entrance into the psychology program. I am optimistic. Below is Defonzo's question so you can see what I am responding to. Casually Illegal Sounds like Casual far left Psycobabble to me |
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Post by richardkelsey on Dec 19, 2007 10:55:20 GMT -5
Casual:
Why don't you tell everyone who you really are. I think they will smile.
Anyway -- I notice now that on two separate threads you have deliberately gone for the mis-direction play -- victimizing people and playing the famous race card. You usually don't play that card when you have other either more witty or interesting things to say.
Casually observing.
BTW -- just tell the people who you are. You have no idea how much pressure I get to reveal your identity.
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Post by richardkelsey on Dec 19, 2007 14:27:52 GMT -5
The author of this letter is ALSO very familiar to me and should be familiar to many other Freehold Borough residents. Jeff Flegler is Jean Flegler's husband. Jean Flegler's maiden name is Jean Kelsey. Jean IS Rich Kelsey's sister. The letter to the News Transcript offering praise for Rich Kelsey was written by Richard's own Brother-in-law. I suppose that is the best Rich can offer for his support - family members. First, there was his dad's letter telling us how brilliant and successful his son Richard is. Actually, before that one, came Rich's dad letter to the Asbury Park Press, telling the entire Monmouth and Ocean County readership just how great a job Mayor Wilson is doing in dealing with illegal immigration in Freehold Borough. Then - we heard how wonderful a son he has living in Virginia and disagreeing with his own father's positive views about the town. And, now we have Rich's brother-in-law isolating a question that Rich buried in his letter of anger and that was overlooked in his hateful tirade against this Mayor. At least, this time, someone in the family was not afraid to focus on Rich's supposed key item of concern without having to berate the Mayor and the entire town to get to it. It took a Kelsey in-law to do this, because, obviously, the Kelsey "Genes" (no pun intended) do not permit family members to direct a question that does not require a long-winded diatribe. So, now that we know who Jeff Flegler is, can we expect additional letters from Kelsey family members seeking to bail out the writer of this year's most hate filled and polarizing letter to the editor of the News Transcript? I suppose this manufactured controversy will run its course only after all the remaining Kelsey family members have spoken. God help us all. Well -- I suspect attacking the author is better than trying to attack the subject matter. I was delighted to get the support and hear from an actual resident of freehold. In fact, I guess we can add that to the letter written by an elected official in Freehold -- one to whom I am not related. Since Mayor Wilson is also a distant relative -- should we too discount the substance of his letter -- LOL. Look, not every person to whom I am related agrees with me. In fact, one cousin has submitted a letter to the paper stating such -- why it is not yet printed I don't know. Where were you to impeach the letter writers supporting the Mayor? They are all democrat cronies -- two of whom were appointed to their positions by the Mayor himself. Talk about suspect. If every Kelsey wrote -- that would not be nearly enough to cover every democrat in Freehold (some of whom are Kelsey's!) So far -- if you are scoring at home on the witnesses -- here is what we have. For the Mayor The Mayor Councilwoman Shutzer (His dem colleague) Councilman Le Vine (his dem colleague he appointed) Councilman Sims (His dem colleague he appointed) Former Councilperson Sue Sweetman (longtime friend, out of towner, and political crony) For getting at the facts Me My father (former Councilman) M Brother-in-law (Borough Resident) Andrew Defonzo (Borough Resident, elected official) Oh wait -- I forgot Tom Baldwin. He does not like either me or the Mayor -- and apparently really dislikes Marc. So, the Mayor and his cronies find themselves now aligned with Tom Baldwin in their dislike for me -- which should be a major red flag for them as to which side right and wrong they are on. So -- we have not yet heard from Joe Freehold -- whoever that is. The key difference is this -- we are talking about the issues, and people like you are only talking about us. Anyway -- Jeff gets right to the heart of it -- and folks like you continue to dodge the question -- which -- of course, is the strategy. Hey -- I won't apologize because my family likes me! LOL Someone has to like me! I don't know you from adam -- or maybe I do. But it seems to me if you want to add value, you can address the core issues. Why the change in policy? Why the tough talk and no action? Why no 287(g) the minimum action a town can take? Why appoint anyone who is an open borders' lobbyist to a town committee? Should the town appoint people from out of town? Should the town appoint people without checking their legal status? If the the town has or does appoint someone who is not in the country legally, should that be disclosed? Your use of the term manufactured is telling. First, it's a fabrication. I didn't manufacture this issue. I didn't appoint anyone, I didn't settle any suits, and I didn't praise the positive effects of illegals immigration on the town. All I did was point out the disconnect between the public persona and words, and the actual actions and deeds. And, of course, I asked questions of a one party government that is use to not answering questions. But your use of "manufactured" is consistent with the charge made on this site by friends of the machine. So -- why don't you tell us who you are -- and then we will know everyone's particular bias. We can put you in one column or the other. And, once the biases are out -- we can then dig on the facts. |
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Post by Libyan Sibyl on Dec 19, 2007 15:44:59 GMT -5
and Jerrycurl is not a supporter of the current adminstration?
Is there something wrong with supporting one side or the other?
Of course, if family connections are what bothers you, than you, JC, I suggest you write using your old handle(s), and rethink your philosophical position and current appointment(s) on any committees in the boro.
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Post by richardkelsey on Dec 19, 2007 16:34:56 GMT -5
Jerry Curl is a made-up identity -- and in fact the IP tracking is even more interesting. (Talk about an out-of-towner)
If you take note of Jerry Curl's post -- you will see it is formatted oddly. That is probably because it was written by one person, e-mailed to another, and cut, pasted, and posted through that account for the purpose of washing the IP.
In other words, JerryCurl is the friend of a former poster and is both monitoring the site and posting now on the site hide the identity of the real poster -- which in this case is somewhat transparent.
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Post by fiberisgoodforyou on Dec 19, 2007 16:56:29 GMT -5
Please take another look at the "HANDLE" Jerry Curl. There is an ethnic relation to this handles and an ethnic hair product. Jerry Curl is a made-up identity -- and in fact the IP tracking is even more interesting. (Talk about an out-of-towner) If you take note of Jerry Curl's post -- you will see it is formatted oddly. That is probably because it was written by one person, e-mailed to another, and cut, pasted, and posted through that account for the purpose of washing the IP. In other words, JerryCurl is the friend of a former poster and is both monitoring the site and posting now on the site hide the identity of the real poster -- which in this case is somewhat transparent. |
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What an elitist snob!!! 
